Interesting Article Thread v.2

[Ded10c]

My job involves saving lives; even then, there are situations when I can't get involved. This does happen, and it happens for a reason.

In this particular instance, though, it is worth noting that bad CPR can sometimes be worse than no CPR. CPR is dangerous; it will break the casualty's ribs if done properly, it could cause them to ingest large volumes of air and cause them to vomit, they could end up choking, etc. That's what good CPR does; bad CPR can be fatal. For CPR to be truly effective it has to be administered by somebody who is trained to do so; even then, the success rate is low. CPR alone is practically useless.

That said, the woman is a medical professional. She should know how to perform CPR and I cannot understand why there would be a policy against it. Anybody who would take policy over that woman's life has too little in the way of compassion.

[MrTwosheds]

I noticed the term barely breathing, implying that she was still breathing, CPR is intended to restart the heart, which presumably is still beating if the patent is still breathing, so CPR is almost certainly not the correct procedure at this point, and performing it could be just as dangerous to the patient as not doing it. Obviously we know little about the patents overall medical condition, but at 87 there are much worse things that can happen to you than a quiet passing away, being pointlessly kept alive once everything that makes life worthwhile has already gone is not something any of us really want.
Death is sacred too.

[Zero Angel]

My job involves saving lives; even then, there are situations when I can't get involved. This does happen, and it happens for a reason.

In this particular instance, though, it is worth noting that bad CPR can sometimes be worse than no CPR. CPR is dangerous; it will break the casualty's ribs if done properly, it could cause them to ingest large volumes of air and cause them to vomit, they could end up choking, etc. That's what good CPR does; bad CPR can be fatal. For CPR to be truly effective it has to be administered by somebody who is trained to do so; even then, the success rate is low. CPR alone is practically useless.

That said, the woman is a medical professional. She should know how to perform CPR and I cannot understand why there would be a policy against it. Anybody who would take policy over that woman's life has too little in the way of compassion.

Obviously someone who is untrained in CPR/First Aid and finds a casualty should immediately shout for help but there are a lot of situations where it would be unfeasible to expect a swift response from emergency services (like in rural areas), one has to do what one can. 'Bystander effect' (where one sits and watches in horror of something bad happening instead of doing something about it) is pretty dangerous when someone's life is at stake and even though CPR has a low success rate, the rate diminishes extremely quickly the more time that passes -- the fact that someone's heart has stopped or is undergoing severe fibrillation (the very situation that warrants the use of CPR) is the situation where rib damage or the puncturing of a lung (worst case scenario) is probably better than just letting the casualty die.

Most people I know who are trained will easily choose to attempt to save someones life over not breaking some arbitrary law or risking damage to the casualty (except in cases of severe neck or spine injury where moving the casualty improperly can be fatal to him). There are always judges and maybe some overly strict local policies however where i'm from the law typically sides with people who are attempting to help those whose lives are being threatened.

I'm trained in CPR and First Aid btw

[Ded10c]

...

Two mistakes there;
- If the casualty is "barely breathing" - best termed medically as agonal breathing, then CPR is exactly the right course of action.
- CPR is not and has never been intended to restart the heart. Rather, it attempts to keep blood and oxygen flowing regardless of whether the cardiopulmonary system is working or not. That's why it's called cardiopulmonary resuscitation (heart and lungs) rather than just cardiac resuscitation(heart).

...

Obviously, yes, if untrained call for help and do it yourself if the worst comes to the worst. The woman was a nurse though, so I find it hard to believe she's not trained to perform CPR or at least has no knowledge of it. The government here recently ran a series of public information ads with the British Heart Foundation, which means most of the public knows how to perform at least mildly useful hands-only CPR.

There are procedures for CPR on spinally-injured casualties, of course; most require two people and those who haven't been trained would likely be ignorant to them. Regardless, the protocol we a given is "If you can't do SCIM-CPR, just do CPR; they might wake up paralysed, but at least they might wake up".

Fireman, right?

[Zero Angel]

That's right.

[MrTwosheds]

I imagine the failure rate at "rest homes" is rather high, management probably figured they could save on training costs and staff attrition by just telling them not to, like you say a real nurse would know how to do it. Plenty more paying customers where that one came from...

Last week our noble leader David Cameron was seen working hard, selling British university places in India... yes the country that could fill our universities 100 times over and still want more. Obviously he has to do this because us tax paying natives are just too stupid to benefit from a university education ourselves and besides we will all be needed to fill minimum wage vacancies at our own care homes as the baby boom generation prepares to depart. I seem to have been fairly isolated in viewing this "sale" of our own home grown capabilities as a form of treason. But of course David will be making sure that he can afford carers who know how to do CPR, the rest of us uneducated, benefit dependant fools should not be surprised if we are left to die for the cause of efficiency.

[Red Spot]

Not going to validate any arguments or the opposite as i believe there is something to be said in favour/against most that has been said on subject. Am going to point out that our 'current standards' towards CPR is as much policy as the policy to not perform it, which started the whole discussion.

[Ded10c]

I imagine the failure rate at "rest homes" is rather high, management probably figured they could save on training costs and staff attrition by just telling them not to, like you say a real nurse would know how to do it. Plenty more paying customers where that one came from...

Last week our noble leader David Cameron was seen working hard, selling British university places in India... yes the country that could fill our universities 100 times over and still want more. Obviously he has to do this because us tax paying natives are just too stupid to benefit from a university education ourselves and besides we will all be needed to fill minimum wage vacancies at our own care homes as the baby boom generation prepares to depart. I seem to have been fairly isolated in viewing this "sale" of our own home grown capabilities as a form of treason. But of course David will be making sure that he can afford carers who know how to do CPR, the rest of us uneducated, benefit dependant fools should not be surprised if we are left to die for the cause of efficiency.

It doesn't come anywhere near that; every medical professional in this country is trained to perform CPR.

[Nielk1]

The staff is not to do CPR because they open them selves up to suits. Figure that one out. The only reason the American medical system has issues is the legal bullshit.

[Iron_Maiden]

Meurte:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/hug ... print.html

[Roscoe]

I remember some bigwig speech event when Hugo walked up to the podium after Bush had just left and claimed he could smell sulfur. People took it to mean he was ascribing demonic attributes to Bush, but I think he just farted and bailed and Hugo was trying to call him on it.

Another terrorist evildoer vanquished.

[MrTwosheds]

The staff is not to do CPR because they open them selves up to suits. Figure that one out. The only reason the American medical system has issues is the legal bullshit.

I would have thought there would be enough precedents in these circumstances for any potential litigant to be laughed out of court with a huge expenses bill. That is what would happen here.

[Iron_Maiden]

dun dun duh!:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/ ... print.html

[Nielk1]

The staff is not to do CPR because they open them selves up to suits. Figure that one out. The only reason the American medical system has issues is the legal bullshit.

I would have thought there would be enough precedents in these circumstances for any potential litigant to be laughed out of court with a huge expenses bill. That is what would happen here.

Nope, in fact some parts of that massive bill that our lovely government passed without reading actually makes this even worse.

All the high medical costs in America are not due to free market but fear of lawsuits. If a doctor doesn't do a test, and that test would have shown something completely unexpected, the patient can sue when they do find out they have XYZ problem and the doctor can end up run out of business. As such they have to run all sorts of tests and those cost money. The insurance companies don't pay the full cost, so the prices go up just so that the doctors and hospitals in question can make a living wage while under the massive malpractice insurance costs.

The irony is that our working free market health system has been nearly destroyed by government control, and the solution they champion, is more government control... Yes, the state of our laws, and how they are carrier out is the fault of our government, not just enterprising lawyers, since if it was just the lawyers they would get laughed out of court with no legal precedent (as you so noted).

EDIT:
Lets not forget, CPR is 2 parts, rescue breathing and chest compressions. I find it odd that lately the radio has been telling me to just do the chest compressions, but it is probably fear of diseases. Still, that is better than nothing.

CPR and its parts are all about keeping the machine's parts working before the damaged/arrant ones can be restarted or replaced. I can't wait for the day that technology replaces the need for such brute physical methods, but they work at the moment and anyone should know them.

I am not certified, at least not any longer, but I have my first aid merit badge and it was part of my education in high school believe it or not. The most basic parts of it you tend not to forget, though the first action is always to look for danger, the 2nd to call for help, and the 3rd to give assistance yourself.

That woman, as I am hearing she was actually not a nurse, should have at the very least had a medical staff or knowledgeable bystander try to help, but she refused to even find a random man on the street or flag a passing car. That said, had she, should would probably lose her job, and the economy is so **** now, that could mean the long term suffering of herself and her family. This is what the economic decline has done to America. It's not taking milk from babies as Obama said, its making people look out for only themselves, killing the long standing tradition of cooperation and empathy that has long been a hallmark of the American population.

[Ded10c]

Lets not forget, CPR is 2 parts, rescue breathing and chest compressions. I find it odd that lately the radio has been telling me to just do the chest compressions, but it is probably fear of diseases. Still, that is better than nothing.

CPR and its parts are all about keeping the machine's parts working before the damaged/arrant ones can be restarted or replaced. I can't wait for the day that technology replaces the need for such brute physical methods, but they work at the moment and anyone should know them.

I am not certified, at least not any longer, but I have my first aid merit badge and it was part of my education in high school believe it or not. The most basic parts of it you tend not to forget, though the first action is always to look for danger, the 2nd to call for help, and the 3rd to give assistance yourself.

The radio encourages people to do just the compressions because that's the most important part and the easiest; getting the rescue breathing wrong (head not in the right position, airway not open properly or blocked, etc) can be more dangerous than not doing it at all. Of course, if you know how to do it it's better to ignore the radio.