The Debate

[Red Devil]

"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power."
- Benito Mussolini

For more on the definition of Fascism (from his own lips):

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/muss ... ascism.asp

This is what has become of our countries. Places that used to ennoble and promote the individual and their inventiveness have become places where corporate lobbyists roam the halls of our nations' and states' capitals, searching for the congressman who is the lowest bidder.

Money + Greed = Power

[Red Devil]

Socialism/Liberalism/Progressivism:

Norman Matton Thomas (November 20, 1884 – December 19, 1968) was a leading American socialist, pacifist, and six-time presidential candidate for the Socialist Party of America. He was ordained as a Presbyterian minister in 1911. As a candidate for President of the U. S., Norman Thomas said, in a 1944 epoch speech:

“The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of “liberalism”, they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened.”

He went on to say: “I no longer need to run as a Presidential Candidate for the Socialist Party. The Democratic Party has adopted our platform.”

[Psychedelic Rhino]

Interesting you should list those quotes.

I was convinced the country would see a massive downturn in the economy around 2014-15 when the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (PPACA) kicked in to full swing. However now, it appears there's a very good chance it will be found unconstitutional by the supreme court soon.

This was similarly recognized 50 years ago by Reagan in a speech he gave, and one of those quotes were used.

[HitchcockGreen]

I'm not surprised Reagan opposed (or was asked to oppose) socialized medicine.
I certainly don't agree. Given the economic situation of the U.S. now a lot of residents might feel the same way.

I have had family have accidents while travelling in the U.S. and was blown away by the medical costs. Because it's not just covering costs, supplies and overhead, but a tidy profit. The West has become addicted to making it's own people sick so that they can sell pharmaceuticals to treat the symptoms, but not cure the disease.

Reagan was one of key operators in disabling the checks and balances against corporations and big banks during his tenure. America enjoyed 40 years without an economic crisis until somewhere along the line, a bribe (read: donation) fuelled the idea that business didn't need to be regulated.

In the past half a century America has been getting it's fingers into economies in every corner of the world. It's time for the people to my south to smarten up and take control. Because when America's economy collapses (it's not if) they will bring down half the world with them.

[Red Devil]

the problem is that it's the socialist policies of the Democrats/Socialists/Progressives/Liberals/Fascists that are bringing it down by creating a huuuuge centralized bureaucratic government payed for with either huuuuge debt or repressive taxes.

when we realize that a nanny state won't fix our problems but in fact *is* the problem and we return to our capitalist policies, this puppy will roar like it once did.

[HitchcockGreen]

You're wrong about that. It doesn't matter what party is in power, they've all contributed to the problem.

If it was just as simple as the democrats bloating the government, then it would have been slimmed down by the previous republicans, right? Well that didn't happen. And it didn't not happen because the elected republicans were "socialists" or "liberals" it's because they're all greedy puppets.

[Red Devil]

well, if you had read what i said before, you would see that i said the same thing. The politicians, no matter the party, are all a bunch of power-hungry crooks.

[MrTwosheds]

Trying to mix socialism and and unregulated capitalism is a disaster, everyone is either trying to spend the all the money or just run off with it. A balance between the two is essential, The people have to be able to make money themselves, and the state must be able to exercise some level of control over that process (Or you end up with depleted resources and a big mess nobody wants to clean up) The creation of human wealth is naturally and firmly based in the organic environment (eg no trees = no wood = no money etc) ensuring that most of your population create their wealth from this base and that it is protected from them, is the only way to create a long term stable economic system. Corporatism is a process that deliberately attempts to take over this process, to take the wealth creation process away from the people to own more of it for itself.
Both Communism and unregulated Capitalism attempt to remove wealth creation from "the people", either by government oppression or corporate accumulation, both are unstable if allowed to go too far, only the mechanism by which wealth creation is taken away from people differs.

[Red Devil]

Corporatism/Fascism, not Capitalism...

Ron Paul is Media Poison:

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0811/61412.html

[MrTwosheds]

Unregulated Capitalism naturally evolves into Corporatism.
Ron Paul is challenging the real powers in your nation, The Media Corporations will NOT support him. If you elected him as president, they would destroy him. Liberty was lost long ago, it is a romantic fiction.

[Red Devil]

Here's a good, concise read on how corporations seized power away from the States:

Excerpt: (emphasis added by me)

"One of the most severe blows to citizen authority arose out of the 1886 Supreme Court case of Santa Clara County v. Southern Pacific Railroad. Though the court did not make a ruling on the question of "corporate personhood," thanks to misleading notes of a clerk, the decision subsequently was used as precedent to hold that a corporation was a "natural person."

From that point on, the 14th Amendment, enacted to protect rights of freed slaves, was used routinely to grant corporations constitutional "personhood." Justices have since struck down hundreds of local, state and federal laws enacted to protect people from corporate harm based on this illegitimate premise. Armed with these "rights," corporations increased control over resources, jobs, commerce, politicians, even judges and the law.

A United States Congressional committee concluded in 1941, "The principal instrument of the concentration of economic power and wealth has been the corporate charter with unlimited power...."

http://reclaimdemocracy.org/corporate_a ... ns_us.html

so, a corporation is a "natural person"???

[HitchcockGreen]

well, if you had read what i said before, you would see that i said the same thing. The politicians, no matter the party, are all a bunch of power-hungry crooks.

Yes, but....

the problem is that it's the socialist policies of the Democrats/Socialists/Progressives/Liberals/Fascists that are bringing it down by creating a huuuuge centralized bureaucratic government payed for with either huuuuge debt or repressive taxes.

You're blaming one, and not the other there.

...

Yes.

so, a corporation is a "natural person"???

Does that mean that naturalized people are corporations, too?

[Red Devil]

Fasicism/Corporatism includes those so-called republicans. both major parties have become corrupted.

[HitchcockGreen]

+1

[Red Devil]

Ron Paul's birthday today, so there's a 'money bomb' going on.

looks like it's getting about $1,500 a minute, all small donations from individuals.

https://secure.ronpaul2012.com/