Interesting article thread

[jack775544]

Current US debt, in real time.

[MrTwosheds]

Meaningless.

[Psychedelic Rhino]

Current US debt, in real time.

$181,000 and climbing . . . per citizen.

That should be enough to shock anyone. Especially if we are forced from the results of another economic crisis to greatly correct it.

The tide has been receding for many years, and we're still enjoying the picnic on the beach.

[MrTwosheds]

If someone could produce a similar statistic, for say the profits of your top 25% earners, I suspect you would see a remarkable correlation. Have cake and eat it...apparently you can. Actually this fiscal stuff isn't that important, its imaginary, when it goes wrong, it won't be because of a failure of imagination, it will be because of a total failure to respect and understand the true value of "The Real".

[Red Devil]

as in monopoly, if you're using monopoly (fake) money and if you run out of that money, you're out of the game.

[MrTwosheds]

And the game ends when one player owns all the property and has all the fake money, which is now useless.
Problem is the "real" game does not end, what happens is your economy contracts, those without assets no longer contribute, those with all the assets just try to keep them. The "REAL" player who does not use monopoly money but supplies all of the property. (The Earth) gets beat up bad and stops supplying property...Unless the game gets put back in the box till next Christmas, when we all start with an equal share again.
The lesson is that you cannot succeed indefinitely unless you make sure the cash circulates and the supply of property/resources is maintained and available for all to use. Skyscrapers of cash are a symptom of systemic failure.

[Red Devil]

heh, agreed

"Invest in land; it's the only thing they're not making more of" -Mark Twain

"For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?" -Jesus

[Nielk1]

If someone could produce a similar statistic, for say the profits of your top 25% earners, I suspect you would see a remarkable correlation. Have cake and eat it...apparently you can. Actually this fiscal stuff isn't that important, its imaginary, when it goes wrong, it won't be because of a failure of imagination, it will be because of a total failure to respect and understand the true value of "The Real".

The fact that you believe something like that without ever actually looking it up is disturbing. It reminds me of the class warfare indoctrination going on here in the US.

The national debt per citizen is above the average income of the entire citizen population of the US. Even if you eliminate the 1 in 5 that make below 20k a year. Hell, if you eliminate all but the top 25% it still doesn't look good. And remember, if you start eliminating parts from your scope you have to re-jigger the amount owed per person since you are eliminating parties as possible payers. So its PerPersonDebt+(PerPersonDebt*(75/100)) if you want to look at the top 25% paying that.

[Psychedelic Rhino]

Income re-distribution follows the old adage,

"When you're young and not a democrat, you have no heart."
"When you're older and not a republican, you have no brains."

When you're young and your assets and income are relatively low, income re-distribution seems 'only fair'.

When you're older and you have busted your ass for years and have accumulated wealth, income re-distribution feels like government mandated theft.

[Red Devil]

doesn't matter anyways: every bubble bursts and the one we're all in now is full of lots of hot air and slime and under a lot of pressure. if you think you can go to the local supermarket after it bursts and get anything except robbed, best of luck to you.

gosh, i feel so cheery today...

[MrTwosheds]

The fact that you believe something like that without ever actually looking it up is disturbing.

It stems not from class warfare, which is for idiots. But from a general understanding of relativity and that it effects everything from the smallest particles, economics, evolution and the motion of galaxies.
It is a question of finding balance in economies, and little to do with equality or class. The greater the relative difference's in wealth, the less efficiently an economy performs, but also the opposite is true, too much equality of wealth would also stifle an economy just as effectively.
An excess of wealth in the top portion of the population, will have the effect of making a profitable business in the lower portion almost impossible, as the value of those small time profits become so valueless that they are not really worth doing beyond the point of simply providing subsistence. The super rich and the sponger are not distinct separate entities, just the extremes of a single unbalanced system.
Simplistic "redistribution" is not the answer at all, a dynamic mechanism that encourages recirculation of wealth throughout an economic system is the only way to achieve balance. It is absolutely essential that those at the top of the pile do not amass enormous wealth without also feeding most of that back into the economic system that produced it. This is the essential problem we now have, but it is also further aggravated by an apparent total lack of understanding of the real sources and nature of wealth, by those supposedly "in control" of it.
Why would I look things up when as far as I can tell, none of the "experts" actually understand the system they claim expertise in.
An economy is a "virtual" (in our minds) extension of the natural environment, it is entirely dependent on it.

The national debt per citizen is above the average income of the entire citizen population of the US.

Your "real" national debt is even greater, it is represented by the loss of ecosystem, biodiversity and the wealth given by nature. (See previous discussions on a certain US corporations international activities and anti environment politics)
Grow some tree's...they are what made your nation wealthy.

[Zenophas]

If someone could produce a similar statistic, for say the profits of your top 25% earners, I suspect you would see a remarkable correlation. Have cake and eat it...apparently you can. Actually this fiscal stuff isn't that important, its imaginary, when it goes wrong, it won't be because of a failure of imagination, it will be because of a total failure to respect and understand the true value of "The Real".

Wanna drop acid together sometime?

[Psychedelic Rhino]

That's why I mentioned 'Margin Call'. It dramatizes how most of those at the very top had no freakin' idea what was happening. They understood they were making historic profits, and it all was somehow legal and ok. THAT was all they needed to know, or so they thought.

[MrTwosheds]

Wanna drop acid together sometime?

Been there, done that, chose sanity instead. There are also perfectly good communicable diseases that have a similar effect, without the risk of indefinite mental health collapse. I will resist temptation to recommend any specific ones, as I don't think anyone would thank me for it.

[Red Devil]

^^ Classic Internet Moment ^^