balanceing of isdf and scions

[shadow]

hey guys...
i wanted to say that...
ISDF:
gets gts with 1 pools,more attack power weakness at base can't be killed by a mere empty...
SCION:
gets spires with 2 pools,comparatively low attack,attack is negligible against walkers,can be destroied by mere empty,weakness beneath it
ISDF:
has enough ammo to destroy 1 extractor!
SCIONS:
needs to go back for a pod to destroy 1 extractor!(lame)
ISDF:
needs to go through too much hassle to destroy a turret
SCION:
can kill multiple turrets with an scout with the mine it has
ISDF:
lastly....mortar bikes are overpowered to be so cheap and able to climb almost everycliff!!!!!!!!!!!.....(BUG?) and can go off map(i am not talking about human comtrolled bikes) and can rush easyly with 5 to 6 of them to kill bases...
SCION:
can be killed by a turret faster than they are killed by a tower....

why why why!!! this all seems not fair

[Shadow Knight]

Because you don't know about tech trees or Archers.

[MrTwosheds]

The difference between the races add a great depth to the game, learning how to use them to their full effect can take a long time. I've been playing for years and only recently have I rediscovered the wonderful destructive capability's of a squadron of well controlled wasp lancers...don't laugh! I have watched experienced players quit as I unexpectedly blew up their jammer protected spire clusters with a bunch of these beauty's!

[Red Spot]

If you look a little closer you will find a balance in that imbalance. Why there are 2 different races and not 2 identical ones with a different color.
Plenty of games that work that way and imo they usually revolve around getting to 'path x' before the other can, which allows you to dominate the other as you got there first (so in effect those games do not revolve around strat/tactics but around the speed you can make things happen for you).

Play ISDF vs ISDF and see if the other side neglects tech'ing to chain asap ... the side that neglects it has a good chance of losing the game, at least the early game.
Now play as Scion vs ISDF, remember they likelly go for chain asap .. what do you do?

hey guys...
i wanted to say that...
ISDF:
gets gts with 1 pools,more attack power weakness at base can't be killed by a mere empty...
No they do not, yes they can get there with 1 pool, but the first GT will cost you 130 scrap, scions only spend 75 on the first GT.
SCION:
gets spires with 2 pools,comparatively low attack,attack is negligible against walkers,can be destroied by mere empty,weakness beneath it
Ever rushed an ISDF base with Maulers? You get there a lot sooner than ISDF potentially gets to walkers. If you let the ISDF get walker and you neglect to build Mauler in an effort to get more GTs up ... you should lose.
ISDF:
has enough ammo to destroy 1 extractor!
But it takes time, time you are a fairly easy target.
SCIONS:
needs to go back for a pod to destroy 1 extractor!(lame)
Team up, 2 sec kills deny the foe to counter you taking it down, combined with blink and they just see extractors dissapear.
ISDF:
needs to go through too much hassle to destroy a turret
See below, how you say M-bikes are too powerfull. You contradict yourself
SCION:
can kill multiple turrets with an scout with the mine it has
Try it vs lvl3 turrets, when a commander has placed say 3 turrets in a pattern they cover each other, you may not even be able to take down 1.
ISDF:
lastly....mortar bikes are overpowered to be so cheap and able to climb almost everycliff!!!!!!!!!!!.....(BUG?) and can go off map(i am not talking about human comtrolled bikes) and can rush easyly with 5 to 6 of them to kill bases...
Every heard of rockets? M-bikes are cannonfodder, you just have to try and prevent them to get that first shot of. (1.2 is a bit different though)
SCION:
can be killed by a turret faster than they are killed by a tower....
So why were you previously complaining about the GT balance, when they are in effect 2nd choice. Turrets can be killed easilly enough to allow you to prepare for a larger assault, specially when combined with blink.
why why why!!! this all seems not fair

As I just illustrated, I think you are missing a few things and forget about the bigger picture. (You didnt mention that drones are much weaker than scouts, or did you not know that? )

[Josiah]

man, what is this, the 50th thread about this? weird weird weird...

[Iron_Maiden]

Shadow, may I redirect you to search this site for the various other threads exactly aout this. Balance has been brought up many times before and it is agreed that the races are balanced in their own respects.

[APCs r Evil]

We should pick one good balance thread out and sticky it.

P.S. Although Gun Spires do indeed require an additional pool and have a severe weakness in the attached Lung, that weakness is incredibly easy to compensate for. Spires also have 10m more range than Towers, a better vantage point, a "far" more accurate weapon and can be built anywhere on the map without the need to create any additional buildings. The only advantage Towers have is their increased firepower on slow targets.

[Red Spot]

We should pick one good balance thread out and sticky it.

If that would be done I would suggest someone assign a volunteer and make a comprehensive post concerning some of the (subtle) differences and how they can best be used/countered.
So far those balance threads are more discussion about how some cant get around using a race or feel discontent with how it is balanced between the 2 races, not all that usefull for players that need the info the most.
(Reading 5 pages of discussion to get 2 pointers isnt particularly inviting to read for players that probably need to soak up a lot of info.)

[Firestorm29]

We should pick one good balance thread out and sticky it.

P.S. Although Gun Spires do indeed require an additional pool and have a severe weakness in the attached Lung, that weakness is incredibly easy to compensate for. Spires also have 10m more range than Towers, a better vantage point, a "far" more accurate weapon and can be built anywhere on the map without the need to create any additional buildings. The only advantage Towers have is their increased firepower on slow targets.

Did you guys ever patch that problem with Assault Tanks aiming for the center of a gun spire? A good part of that space is empty.

[Zero Angel]

ISDF and Scions are difficult to balance at the higher levels of competitive play. Reason being that ISDF gets mid level tech (ie: chain/laser+shads) far before the scions get anything to counter it with -- and furthermore m-curtain and missile scouts can be used to completely suppress a Scion team into their own base. Scions must rely extensively on an exploit of empty canceling to race to high level tech before the ISDF gets to high level tech while keeping attrition down -- this bring scions into parity with the ISDF but in an imbalanced way where the Scions can reach high level tech quickly with only 2 pools and completely turn things around. ISDF spends mid-lategame on the back foot desperately trying to get enough resources to field rocket tanks and walkers to counter blink warriors -- while dealing with tank losses (either that or turtling on 2 pools and doing nothing but base defense while the commander saves up for high tier units). There is lots of debate as to what is 'fair'. It is generally recognized by the strat community that removing the empty cancel exploit will reduce scions' ability to counter midgame units and will make it extremely hard for them to reach lategame -- but on the other hand the scrap cheat is needed to prevent a 1v1/2v2 tactic called the 'rocket tank rush' which can come at a time before the Scions have any counters to it. I propose removing the scrap cheat while making it easier to tech to gauss sentries -- using these as a counterpart to upgunned full scouts -- or simply increase the power of combat blast vs absorbtion shielding while retaining the scrap cheat.

[Red Devil]

i think the scions should get the MAG cannon back like they had in the intro movie

[Iron_Maiden]

I don't seem to recall that.

[Red Devil]

"Alert all units! Enemy is charging its weapon!"

[APCs r Evil]

Did you guys ever patch that problem with Assault Tanks aiming for the center of a gun spire? A good part of that space is empty.

As far as I know that has been fixed for quite some time. All AI units and guided missiles target the base of the Gun Spire, although ordnance can still strike between the arms of the Spire, where there doesn't appear to be anything to strike.

As for late game balance, I've always felt that Archers have too short a range for their price and vulnerability. I'm biased though, Scion for life.

[MrTwosheds]

Zero, your solutions, while very well informed are overly detailed, complex and may only apply to the particular group of people you play with. Players can be very adaptable. The Scion scraploit should go because it simply should not be there and should not be a part of anyone's strategy, empty scout scrap return should be the same as the full scout, 10.
I would like to see minor adjustments to the sentry to help the scion early game, mostly its speed and handling could do with being brought closer towards that of the isdf scout, which out performs it in just about every way. Everyone tries to jump this part of the scion tech tree and go straight for full tech warriors, because the sentry simply cannot compete with isdf scouts or missile scout.