3D exporter coding stuffs

[Froo]

Hey Klink and everyone.

Klink,
You are more than welcome to write articles/threads regarding BZII and truespace export plugin development
at the truespace community forum, and the tS plugin development website. I can send you the link to the plugin development
website if you wish. The tS community forum is more active (you'll probably get more exposure there), since there are more tS users there, than the dev site. Since the dev site is 'quieter' (less traffic), you can discuss your development questions in a more inclusive setting. We have a private section for 'Author' members, accessible only to developers. We can discuss more in detail elsewhere if you wish. Also, as an Author member at the dev website, you can publish articles (not just threads), regarding your interest in BZII / tS coding. So, let me know, and I can get you hooked up.

Forum members: Hola! Como estas?
I don't own BZII but I have checked out Klink's website; BZII looks pretty cool. It's good to see that development is still being supported by a community and at least one of the original developers.
If things ever slow down for me I'd like to try to make mods for BZII. Course, I'd have to purchase it first.
Say; that reminds me. In another post around here somewhere, someone mentioned that the actual game has to be purchased, in order to make mods, etc. Is there a link? Or, is it actually, no longer for sale?

Thanks

Froo

[Iron Maiden]

There are still good copies flating around on Ebay, Amazon, and the like, costs a bit of money, but worth it.

[Froo]

Thanks Iron Maiden.
I'll check it out.

[VSMIT]

@Froo: The only thing really required to make a BZ2 mod is Notepad. Activision hasn't distributed BZ2 for quite some time, so, as Iron says, you'll need to check reseller sites.

Good to see someone new taking a look at BZ2. We've needed new blood for a while now.

[Col Klink]

Thanks Froo, it's a welcome sight to hear from a fellow Truespace modeler. Believe it or not several BZII mod makers have actually produced some very cool models with TS. Considering BZII supports mainly low polygon models Truespace is more then adequate for creating BZII models and props. MAX's chief advantage over Truespace is it's ability to directly export a version 1 XSI model verses having to use a 3rd party conversion utility like 3D Exploration to achieve the same result.

I would also add for people who already have a good modeling software my Truespace articles are not aimed at getting you to switch software. The TS articles are for the benefit of new members and existing members looking for an easier alternative to more complex modeling software. Therefore, your criticism of me or my TS articles are unwarranted and somewhat childish.

Froo, if you ever want to give Battlezone II Modding a whirl let me know and I'll help get you started.

[Col Klink]

We accept you for who you are. Doesn't mean we have to agree with what you say, which is what you seem to keep striving for.

No matter how often you mention it, Truespace will not be as popular a modeling platform for BZ2 as Max, or Blender, or even Lightwave (2 is more than 1). As long as you tout Truespace as the be-all-end-all of BZ2 modeling, you will see opposition. Learn to deal with it in a constructive manner, and we can all get along. As long as you continue to fight over it, you will be on the losing side.

If you figure out something in Truespace that helps with the modeling process, great! Post a single thread about it in the appropriate section. As long as you do this, people may not come down on you as hard.

Thanks, but if you figure in Slaor, SpAce, Scav_Army and myself that's significant too.

[Froo]

Thanks VSMIT.
I'll search online to see if I can find a sample mod file. I am not sure if, legally,
those files are considered 'public/free' or not though.
Would it also be possible for one of you guys to post a sample mod file (if it is legal)?
I'd like to take a look at it.

It sounds like Klink's challenge is, getting an object model from the tS format (i.e.: RsObj - 7.61 Workspace, or COB - 6.6 era, maybe) to the XSI 1.0 or 3.0 format. Both RsObj and Cob are binary formats. So, if the XSI format is text,
then the goal is to write a script/plugin in tS, to export the object in XSI format (which sounds
very straightforward). We cannot directly load a RsObj or COB model into BZII; it must be converted to the XSI format,
and stored in a text file as such.

I have experience with import/export using tS (I've written an OBJ import / export package, as well as
a Blender Fluid Simulator importer plugin for tS ::: shameless plug I know ; but hey, it's FREE now!! Aaaand
with full documentation; about 120 pages or so I believe), so I could help Klink out, in that area if need be.
The OBJ package would really just need to be modified, so it writes data out, to the XSI format, instead of the OBJ format. Pretty straightforward. (Just as a sidenote, the blender fluid sim importer is very similar to the OBJ importer;
the blender fluid sim file format is just a binary OBJ format; bobj. Same format as OBJ, just zipped. muwahahaha! )

In a sense, I'm in the same boat as you guys: You're writing mods and such for BZII to keep it going; I am trying
to write plugins for tS to keep it going. If I could just get... this one confounded thing... working. Meh.

Anyways.

[VSMIT]

Thanks, but if you figure in Slaor, SpAce, Scav_Army and myself that's significant too.

spAce uses Lightwave. We've said that already. Scav_army_gen doesn't count, since all I've ever seen from him are cut-and-paste things made in ThreeD. Not going to comment on Slaor because I don't know for sure what he uses. Don't think it's TS anymore, though.

Thanks VSMIT.
I'll search online to see if I can find a sample mod file. I am not sure if, legally,
those files are considered 'public/free' or not though.
Would it also be possible for one of you guys to post a sample mod file (if it is legal)?
I'd like to take a look at it.

An easy way to look at the text assets is to DL a BZ2 mod that is available in either *.zip or *.7z formats, so you can just go through the file trees and take a look yourself. The files you're looking for is *.odf (Not to be confused with the Open Office filetype with the same name). Regarding legality, you can't use just those files to run the game, so I'm pretty sure it's legal.

It sounds like Klink's challenge is, getting an object model from the tS format (i.e.: RsObj - 7.61 Workspace, or COB - 6.6 era, maybe) to the XSI 1.0 or 3.0 format. Both RsObj and Cob are binary formats. So, if the XSI format is text,
then the goal is to write a script/plugin in tS, to export the object in XSI format (which sounds
very straightforward). We cannot directly load a RsObj or COB model into BZII; it must be converted to the XSI format,
and stored in a text file as such.

Getting an object model from most modeling platforms into BZ2 has become an ordeal. Until recently, Dummy (of Dummyworld.net) was able to repackage the old Pandemic XSI exporter for 3D Studio Max to allow it to be used with the newer versions. The latest version he has released, however, is for Max 2010. Aside from that, the closest anyone's ever come to a direct BZ2 exporter is OvermindDL1, who wrote an exporter for Blender 3D. He has since stopped the project, as his time has been absorbed by other projects.

The text format of the XSI formats is quite simple (don't know if you've seen it already), but I don't know how difficult it would be to write an exporter for it, for any platform. You can find examples of the XSI files HERE. Just unzip to a folder wherever you want and open one up in Notepad. (Look at all of the numbers there)

I have experience with import/export using tS (I've written an OBJ import / export package, as well as
a Blender Fluid Simulator importer plugin for tS ::: shameless plug I know ; but hey, it's FREE now!! Aaaand
with full documentation; about 120 pages or so I believe), so I could help Klink out, in that area if need be.
The OBJ package would really just need to be modified, so it writes data out, to the XSI format, instead of the OBJ format. Pretty straightforward. (Just as a sidenote, the blender fluid sim importer is very similar to the OBJ importer;
the blender fluid sim file format is just a binary OBJ format; bobj. Same format as OBJ, just zipped. muwahahaha! )

If you can get something working, that would be awesome. Doesn't mean that everyone's going to flock over to TS (I personally won't, as I don't much care for the interface), but people will have another alternative for making models and getting them into BZ2.

In a sense, I'm in the same boat as you guys: You're writing mods and such for BZII to keep it going; I am trying
to write plugins for tS to keep it going. If I could just get... this one confounded thing... working. Meh.

Anyways.

Well, thank you for your interest, and good luck with the TS thing.

[Froo]

Thanks for the info VSMIT.
The sample XSI files are what I would need. I will review them.
Yep, numbers numbers numbers. Probably a good place to start would be,
exporting a cube. Yeah, I know; a cube's not all that badass in the battlefield,
but at least it is a predictable geometric shape, good for testing and review
in the XSI file. And simple to troubleshoot, if it cannot be successfully loaded
into BZII. If a simple textured cube can be successfully exported, then any valid
geometrical object can be exported as well. Understanding the structure of the XSI
format (the text file) is the challenge here. I believe that is one thing Klink was asking
about: if there is a file description somewhere. If it's not, I / we may be able to figure
it out by observing the sample XSI files you've pointed out. Those files may not contain
*all* of the most desired components for BZII models. But it's a start, and addons could follow.
The first goal would be to get something basic working. Then add the bells and whistles. And heavy armor. etc.

No, I have no illusions of anyone flocking to trueSpace.
Since development by Caligari Corp. has ceased (due to purchase by Microsoft),
interest in the application has diminished greatly - similar to BZII, I suspect.
I am honing my software development skills; code is not the problem; rather,
the approach to solving the problem is where I need improvement. Yeah, the
interface is not for everyone. But then again, the same can be said for any and
all 3D applications. They all look different; some like them, some don't.

Ok; so. Would it be XSI file format version 1.0, or 3.0? Or both? Or does it matter?
Seems I've seen both formats mentioned here. Or did I imagine that...

[Col Klink]

It sounds like Klink's challenge is, getting an object model from the tS format (i.e.: RsObj - 7.61 Workspace, or COB - 6.6 era, maybe) to the XSI 1.0 or 3.0 format. Both RsObj and Cob are binary formats. So, if the XSI format is text,
then the goal is to write a script/plugin in tS, to export the object in XSI format (which sounds
very straightforward). We cannot directly load a RsObj or COB model into BZII; it must be converted to the XSI format,
and stored in a text file as such.

Another option might be to keep it strictly binary as BZII doesn't directly load an XSI model in to the game. Instead, the engine converts the XSI model to a binary MSH format which is what loads in to BZII.

Would trying to write out a purely binary MSH format be a better choice then trying to create just another XSI export plugin? I guess we'd need the MSH file specifications from Nathan or Ken to create a BZII compatible MSH exporter of some kind. It would go a long way to wards solving the dilemma of getting models ready for BZII. It would also help protect model makers work from unauthorized use by other users which has always been of concern to mod makers in general. At this point I'm just exploring the possibilities that are available as options. What do you other guys think? Short of updating the model format in BZII to some newer format what else can be tried?

[Ded10c]

To clear up what VSMIT said, the only modeller I am aware of that currently uses Truespace for BZ2 is Klink. spAce has always used Lightwave, scav uses ThreeD (never use ThreeD) and whilst Slaor may have done for some part of the Hadeans and Cerberi (which were a collaboration between him, Pastell, and possibly somebody else) I believe he uses 3DS Max now, given that he's a professional in graphic design.

The XSI format (which stands for X SoftImage) is owned, as you can guess, by Softimage. XSIs are currently natively created by one or other piece of Autodesk software, but it's not backwards compatible. The version of XSI BZ2 uses was created specifically by the 1998/99 version of Softimage|XSI, which, despite repeated attempts by numerous modders to find it, is no longer available anywhere. Therefore, we have to go the awkward route of making things in other software and converting it.

[VSMIT]

No, I have no illusions of anyone flocking to trueSpace.
Since development by Caligari Corp. has ceased (due to purchase by Microsoft),
interest in the application has diminished greatly - similar to BZII, I suspect.
I am honing my software development skills; code is not the problem; rather,
the approach to solving the problem is where I need improvement. Yeah, the
interface is not for everyone. But then again, the same can be said for any and
all 3D applications. They all look different; some like them, some don't.

That was more aimed at BNG (Klink) than at you. But I'm glad you're keeping it all in perspective.

With regards to the structure of the file, when I looked at it, it seemed pretty self explanatory. The only issue is visualizing the vertex and edge connections between polys, as vertex location and assignment are in 2 different sections of the file. Good luck.

edit: Ninja'd by BNG

Another option might be to keep it strictly binary as BZII doesn't directly load an XSI model in to the game. Instead, the engine converts the XSI model to a binary MSH format which is what loads in to BZII.

Would trying to write out a purely binary MSH format be a better choice then trying to create just another XSI export plugin? I guess we'd need the MSH file specifications from Nathan or Ken to create a BZII compatible MSH exporter of some kind.

While this does sound like a good idea on paper, the fact that the XSI>MSH conversion is still held back by GSH and Ultraken is the problem. Currently, the only other person who has that info is OvermindDL1, and he's not about to divulge it. Anyway, writing an exporter that writes what amounts to a text file is a lot easier than writing one that would encode it.

It would go a long way to wards solving the dilemma of getting models ready for BZII.

Not necessarily. While it may be faster to put out 3D assets with a direct-to-MSH exporter, it would also hinder some of the process (fixing broken flames, for instance), as well as make doing what little vertex animation we can do nearly impossible.

It would also help protect model makers work from unauthorized use by other users which has always been of concern to mod makers in general.

Not really. Anybody can change the skin on a MSH file and claim it as their own. And while it has been of concern to many mod makers, a lot of them are releasing XSI assets along with the MSHs in the mod, to allow others to use them. And there is no real way to keep people from using assets without permission. We just can't keep them locked down like they are in many games.

edit: Ninja'd by AHadley, too. WTF, guys.

[Col Klink]

Bummer....

[Ded10c]

edit: Ninja'd by AHadley, too. WTF, guys.

Hey, I've just come back from work and I'm stoked on caffeine. Not my fault

[Froo]

Thanks for the 'split' VSMIT.