bz2 lag, bz1 no lag

[index]

after a couple months of playing bz2 and bz1 i think that bz1 has hardly any lagouts. in all the game i have played in bz1 i had no lagouts. but in bz2 i had every game lagged. this is obviously something wrong with the programming?

i know that 6.1 was an epic fail for strats, but could something be done to make the multiplayer connections a little more like bz1?

[Nielk1]

after a couple months of playing bz2 and bz1 i think that bz1 has hardly any lagouts. in all the game i have played in bz1 i had no lagouts. but in bz2 i had every game lagged. this is obviously something wrong with the programming?

i know that 6.1 was an epic fail for strats, but could something be done to make the multiplayer connections a little more like bz1?

That is a very uninformed post, bordering on flame bait (accidentally I presume). I implore someone to give index a solid break down of this entire thing as I am off to bed shortly. Also, read the thread GSH made about BZ2 networking, or rather what type of networking it uses.

Putting around 80 units per player and aggressive de-sync correcting into BZ1 would probably bring it into the same fold of issues.

PS: 6.1 was not an 'epic fail', it has some niggles. There are test builds to mitigate this but of course no one who complained about the issues is testing those, at least, not after the first 5 days.

[Ultraken]

BZ2 can handle ten times as many units yet uses less network bandwidth. It's also a lot more secure than BZ1's intrinsically insecure peer-to-peer network model.

(The main issue I have with BZ2 is the default simulation rate is fairly low so vehicle handling seems "laggy".)

[TheJamsh]

Ken, does BZ1 run at higher TPS than BZ2??

[MrTwosheds]

And you do have to wonder at the communities ability to completely ignore the hotfix postings and just continue to play the lagging version...

[Col Klink]

And you do have to wonder at the communities ability to completely ignore the hotfix postings and just continue to play the lagging version...

I'm on dialup, are there any graphic settings that can be tweaked to minimize lagging on my end? I like 6.1 even w/o the hotfix, so maybe it's just tweaking some settings to improve the lag thing.

[GSH]

"Lag" is a uselessly vague term, and yet people who don't seem to have the vocabulary to accurately describe things still use it. Unfortunately. There are a few *completely separate* areas that get lumped together as "lag." These can include:

- Low framerate. This can be caused by setting graphics too high -- local fog is a framerate killer, reflections can also be bad -- or other applications running on your system (antivirus running and eating up your HD? Your computer sending h3rbal v1agra emails out a million times a minute?) that starve BZ2. BZ1's graphics are *MUCH* simpler and don't even have local fog, reflections, etc. Try setting everything to low in graphics options, see if this gets better. Re-enable things slowly and see if it gets better.

- Collision warp -- when the user's craft is hit in MP, there's a *bump* a little bit later where the viewpoint resets. Might be a bit better in the latest hotfix posted. BZ2's collision system is utter garbage, and supports only one collision per object per timestep.

- "Lag outs" -- BZ2 needs constant communication from players, or they're kicked out. Once again, better in the latest hotfix posted. Go try it.

- Messages noting a player is lagged, then they catch up. Usually caused by packet loss or overloaded network bandwidth. Try turning voice communication OFF, especially if you're on a modem. BZ1 did not have integrated voice comm, so BZ2's bandwidth usage can be higher than BZ1's if voice is on. If you turn off voice, then bandwidth will be lower than BZ1. If you're getting intermittent packet loss, try not using wireless to your computer. Also turn off any other background network usage, like streaming music/video, downloads (legal or otherwise), etc. See if that helps.

'Index' - before you use the term 'lag' again, please take a cue from what I did above: I wrote out long descriptive sentences and paragraphs. Help us help you by accurately describing what you're seeing. Got it?

-- GSH

[Warfreak]

I'm on dialup, are there any graphic settings...

Yeah, stop right there. I don't know what it is with people but they seem to confuse one function with another. At home do you wear glasses to hear better? Thought not.
You are describing Client-Side framerate drops if your graphics settings ever result in smoother gameplay (personally, I call it jitter). Setting your graphics will never affect networking functions in any shape or form because the two functions are as unrelated as sight and hearing.
Which makes me wonder as to how many "lag reports" are actually about network lag. I know a good majority of logs sent to GSH were or else he wouldn't have been able to work with them, but how many of the non-log supplemented reports are graphics issues because people have yet to upgrade their rigs to something at least 6 years old like my current rig is.

Also, if you are calling BZ1 lossless, you are not paying attention. I'm going with my understanding of BZ2-ish networking and the fact that Ken stated BZ1's is not kept as secure to infer that the clients merely reference each other instead of attempting to run the same conditions in the same instance like BZ2 does.

IOW: crazy scripts and the like can be run and parsed because BZ1, according to this assumption, which may be totally wrong, only looks for incoming data and works with it client-side instead of looking to make sure all instances have the same data values and are running the same scenario.
Basically, if my client says to the others that I am in 5 places at once, the other clients just roll with it. In BZ2, if my client says I am in 5 places at once , the other clients check with the server machine, which is treated as the control scenario, to make sure that my claim is even possible. If not, everything resyncs to the control which says that those movements are illegal according to the code.

[Col Klink]

Most of us don't have a clue what your talking about in technical terms, but I see tweaking some settings can help the game perform better on our own systems. Thanks for the tips though. The only program that I'm aware of running in the background is my virus scanner although I have had my browser running on occasion too. I'll not use anything when playing 6.1 or 1.2 for that matter.

[Shadow Knight]

Most of us don't have a clue what your talking about in technical terms

Nah, just you according to here

[Nielk1]

I talked to Ken a bit ago and he went into BZ2 vs BZ1 networking a bit.

BZ2 uses lockstep worlds just like RTSs, it is the human being able to directly control a craft that messes that up. That is how we can have 800 units in a game and still be relatively stable.

BZ1 uses P2P style, which is one reason it is so plagued with hacks. In BZ2, to hack, you have to be host whom is the 'god' world in a resync. In BZ1, every client is the 'god' of their own stuff. Also be it noted that in BZ1, full craft data such as position and such is sent over where in BZ1 only orders are sent over whenever possible (like an RTS). In my experience, when most RTSs go out of sync, the game just dies. BZ2 knowing it would happen a lot with a human FPSing in there, resyncs.

Basically, issues in online games that are not caused by slow clients are internet lag in BZ2 will fall into 2 camps: Deterministic failures and human factor. Deterministic failures occur when both sides don't quite get the same info at the same time, specifically AI orders. This can easily be exacerbated by the human factor and in fact should never happen without it. The human factor is simply that a human cannot be predicted reliably.

So, in BZ2, if you some how get ACTUAL issues in a game that are not client side FPS lag or internet based packet loss/delay lag, then it will either fall into the Deterministic or Human camp. In the event you can make a bug occur when in a bunker ordering units around, it is probably a failure in the deterministic part, and if it only has issues with humans (blinking into each other or colliding with **** for example) then it is the human part. The human part can be mitigated by allowing for more data to be sent back and forth, but it can't be entirely fixed.

Knowing that both of these happen, if anyone sees warp, a repo-case that is explicitly human interaction or NO HUMAN INTERACTION (orders can be given) would be of great help in resolving it. If people get low FPS, mess with your local rendering settings. If people get internet lag, check first that there is not an issue with the connection of either party and only then, if not, check to see if BZ2 is doing something odd like sending WAY to many packets and flooding itself out.

It might be useful to post some of this in the 1.3 testing sections.

[Col Klink]

Is it any better when a high speed host starts a game and will a dialup modem based player slow down things when they join that game?

[MrTwosheds]

Yes and yes.