Bz and Strat Development

[-Tsahalis-]

My name is Tsahalis. Not many people know me as I started playing Battlezone when I was about ten; I played 1.1 only in SP and 1.2 probably around its peak mostly in mpi and sometimes strats if there wasn't a clan battle one going on.
So coming back about a year or two ago I searched google and some of the sites I remember that had patches and got the 1.3 versions. I started playing again, and was impressed by the advances the game has taken. I eventually started to hold strategy games in stock cause at the time that is all I knew existed. I ran into the vets and non vets throughout this time, one day the 1.2 vets asked me if I had VSR and drilled me a bunch of questions cause they thought I was a friend of theirs using another name. Trollishly, mostly joking in my opinion, they said how could anyone have the brains to find the patch and vsr and install them. I played a few games cause I did have the variant installed from earlier encounters. I learned a few cool things from them, and they were not all bad some just had their up and down days. If I didn’t feel like taking the abuse just don't play for awhile was my idea. Most of those players are gone now since games are less frequent. Now that some of the older players are gone, some of the newer players I noticed are starting to play and asking for patches on strats which is great because there was stuff that needed to be changed and they hit most of them on the head. I also know that the harder 1.2 players created the VSR variant which applied features which are great as well. However from reading the threads I can see there is a clash of interests and reasons. The major was flying; no, I’m not going to discuss pros and cons of this, I personally could never hover great but I got real good at running back and following the patch they took or just avoiding hills. My greatest interest was the way the vets came together and created unit improvements to games that could use every unit instead of a game style where it was who reached the highest tech first and fight it out. AI was also improved so you could have smaller game 1v1 2v2s and use the ai to support you with better aiming and response. They also added two new races, however I only think one of them could actually be legitimately added as the other was kind of just a fun race. The Hedeaons race added the element of like a combat triangle which gave Battlezone an interesting flare that a lot of pure satellite games have but in first person. The biggest example would be starcraft.
My idea is if I can get the support for it from other players, NOT just the veterans as they are called by many. to have someone actually have a position to help create checks and balances and improvements and send them to GSH for review to add to the main game. For one thing, it would take less time for patches to roll out, for another, the main man can invest more time into other bugs instead of just strat bugs or mpi bugs, and even do more in bz2. I ask for GSH to let both the non 1.2 players and 1.2 players to decide on a person to help improve the game and to lessen the workload so we can have patches come out more frequently and continue to improve the game with more visual stuff then code which we can not see.

[Zero Angel]

I think there are quite a few people who are against frequent patch releases. You've been on TS, tsa so you know that not everyone is happy to have to download a patch every time they take a bit of a break from bz2. The reason why VSR releases arent so bad is because it's slightly easier to patch than a zip file which isnt even that difficult or inconvenient.

I asked about having some components of VSR implemented in stock13 (mainly just the main recycler variants, none of the extra races) and was told that 1.3 didnt want to pull in mods -- I guess after what happened with the thug recy variant.

VSR is being worked on again and we're implementing methods to allow strat maps to be played in MPI mode, as well as to improve the design of MPI and FFA modes in the long run so that it's easy to plug new races to the project and have them be playable with minimal extra adapting having to be done (for example, adding a 4th race to MPI is nearly twice as hard as adding a third, adding a 5th race to MPI will be nearly twice as hard as adding a 4th, etc -- which is one of the reasons why IC isnt yet playable in MPI mode). A number of contributors here will be making this happen, including 2 people who have been providing scripting/programming and potentially one dedicated mission script designer (AIP writer) for MPI mode. Other game modes can be implemented into the project at some later date, for all intents and purposes this is a part that's driven by an element of the community and will accept feedback from the entirety of the community that it pertains to. There are two downsides, and the first is that there are some fixes that we do not yet target (e.g. fixing singleplayer missions) mostly because the project members are focusing on other things, the second is that things will move slower in regards to implementing some features that certain mods already implement (like G66) and the third is that anything we implement will not become stock 1.3, but my goal is to have things that appeal to everyone and I eventually expect a great majority players to have this mod anyways in the long run because it will offer something to everyone and so we're not tied down by limitations of what can or cannot be added (for example, I doubt GSH would want to add Hadeans to stock13 assets even though they are a universally well-liked race).

[MrTwosheds]

A the creator of bz2 patches, GSH has a sort of responsibility for maintaining the original image and form of BZ2, he can tweak and improve and add variety to that vision but adding extra races goes beyond that. Mods are the correct way to introduce extra races, adding extra races to stock would be to remove the original form of the game.

[Red Spot]

Thats probably why GSH put in the effort to allow us the use of Recy-variants and launch the game via config-files, which was a wee bit harder to do pre-1.3.

[Nielk1]

I too feel like more races requires a mod and will never be part of stock. I do feel it may be possible to create a defacto standard for MP and IA however. Constant patching is not an issue if an auto-patcher exists, however, due to limited time I am currently concentrating on BZRAP and CP2 rather than that.

I see one day where Stock, Uler, CP: Forgotten Enemies, FleshStorm, FleshStorm2, QF, QF2, CP2, Battlezone Classic and any other campaign mods are used for single-player and BZRAP, EPIC, and Battlezone Classic for multi-player. I am sure people don't all agree with me on that, but that is what I see. BZRAP would be the BZ2 stock paradigm, but with a large set of maps and races and gamemodes, EPIC would be large tile set maps and space battles, and BZC would be BZ1 era paradigm. Nothing precludes a mod from creating a different MP paradigm of course, but so far those are the 3 we have. (Though there are really oldies like Dune Command and BZTRON but they border on total conversions as it is.)

As a side note, it would be nice if the Recycler Variant list allowed for warning messages in the chat area rather than just using a really long name ala the Thug Recycler. A mod like BZRAP has big issues with RVs and allowing a rec to state what races it works with and note that if you pick an unsupported race you will be forced to ISDF would be nice.

[-Tsahalis-]

Ok, I understand that the extra races can be more of a expansion type of thing, and to Zero Angel I understand that others are tired of the constant patches. If they came out faster though in the long run problems would resolve faster and we would get a stable patch even sooner. Mr Twosheds that is actually pretty interesting and I had not thought about that, but even you said the big man can tweak and improve so why not allow help is what Im asking, I think zero angel even said he had brought an offer of letting them use the balances from the vsr variant. Mr Nielk if there was an auto patcher that would be amazing.

[Red Spot]

Since you have a topic on BZ2Maps and just below I made the comment below, you should have been able to know, but I'll just copy it:

These patches are NOT to play, but to TEST.

Title of topic you linked: "1.3.6.4y - OPEN BETA & TESTING"


Dont feel like patching all the time? Dont use the intermediate patches.

[-Tsahalis-]

uhhh I dont know what your last post was aimed at Red Spot but Im talking about more patchs which means more testing? Cause the way you test is by playing, and Im not sure what post you are speaking of cause I dont post much on this forum or bz2maps forum. Unless the whole section was not toward me.

[MrTwosheds]

but even you said the big man can tweak and improve so why not allow help is what Im asking,

Help is always welcome Various people here do bits and pieces and make submissions. I took on reworking the "stock" Hi-res textures, for example.
Its a bit of an epic task... Its really just a question of picking something that needs doing. There is no shortage of "programming advisors" or "gameplay specialists" There are however vacancies for "Testers" no application form is required, bugs will do, preferably clearly worded and free from demands, opinions, insults or expectations. The pay is of course a handsome $0.00 dollars.

[Red Spot]

Well, depending on how you do your calculations it may even pay out in the negative values (PC-usage, electricity, etc). On the other hand, you may gain something that may or may not be a lot more valuable to you.

[Red Devil]

if not for the griefing and attitudes, i would really enjoy playing some strat. well, that, and i can't hit the broad side of a barn.

[MrTwosheds]

That's the great thing about this game Red, you can be really bad at some of it and still have fun. There are few players worse at sniping than me, and sometimes I wonder why I bother with guns at all Often just shooting the right barn wall at the right time can be enough to turn certain defeat into victory.

[Red Spot]

if not for the griefing and attitudes, i would really enjoy playing some strat. well, that, and i can't hit the broad side of a barn.

Same here RD, same here .. I can graze the barn though