Everything Makes Sense in BZ2

[Red Spot]

And what if you're not afraid of spiders?

[MrTwosheds]

It is an easy fear to overcome. The point is that it is inherited instinctive knowledge, common to many species. You were not taught it. I do not fear spiders, but I still experience a physical response to them.

[Ded10c]

It is not an individual.
You are not just an individual, the far greater part of you, from your hair colour to the instinctive fear of spiders was inherited. Most of the information that makes you has been around a lot longer than the daydream that thinks of itself as an individual.

And you're about to present evidence for that that hasn't been explained by anything else?

[Red Spot]

The instinctive fear thing has been proven, if thats what you're after.

[Ded10c]

That's not what I mean. The last two or three posts imply he believes that collective knowledge/realisation and instincts like that indicate that there's no such thing as the self. If that's what he means, I'm trying to get him to prove it (otherwise, it'd be nice to know what he does mean ).

[Red Spot]

I think you need to take that part a little more subtle than as 2Sheds presented it. We are basicly sheep, and behave like that. Watch National Geograpic, they have some show about human behaviour and how we tend to copy other peoples behaviour since it is the 'secure' behaviour.
So yes, there surelly is some form of individualism, but at the same time we also tend to behave like sheep. Per individual(!) it can vary a lot though.

[Ded10c]

I think you need to take that part a little more subtle than as 2Sheds presented it. We are basicly sheep, and behave like that. Watch National Geograpic, they have some show about human behaviour and how we tend to copy other peoples behaviour since it is the 'secure' behaviour.
So yes, there surelly is some form of individualism, but at the same time we also tend to behave like sheep. Per individual(!) it can vary a lot though.

That's as may be, but I'm taking it in the context of this post:

The purpose of (all) life is to enable the Universe to perceive itself

[MrTwosheds]

I did not imply that there is no such thing as self, just that it is not all that you are. I also did not mention collective's, this is a sort of communist concept that is clearly not applicable to a species so inclined to slaughtering its own kind.
I meant ALL life, grass perceives the sun rise and the rain fall, bacterium sense chemical changes around them and respond, Humans build Hubble space telescopes and view distant galaxies. All of this is also The Universe perceiving itself at every level in innumerable ways.

[Red Spot]

this is a sort of communist concept that is clearly not applicable to a species so inclined to slaughtering its own kind.

You do realise that 'slaughtering your own kind' is not per se a human trade?
If a male lion drives away the current leader he tends to kill off all cups from that former leader.
We are just a bit more evolved in it. We dont kill others so the females become interested in us and want to have our children, but we do do such things with similair agendas. Instead of making sure our ofspring gets a chance we do so in order to try to make our ideas/convictions survive. We just refined the concept. Which is also why I tend to laugh out loud when someone tries to state we are not animals.

[Ded10c]

I did not imply that there is no such thing as self, just that it is not all that you are. I also did not mention collective's, this is a sort of communist concept that is clearly not applicable to a species so inclined to slaughtering its own kind.
I meant ALL life, grass perceives the sun rise and the rain fall, bacterium sense chemical changes around them and respond, Humans build Hubble space telescopes and view distant galaxies. All of this is also The Universe perceiving itself at every level in innumerable ways.

The implication being that the universe is complicit in all this.

[MrTwosheds]

I am not anthropomorphising it. "Complicit" implies intent, do you have intent?...Yes. You are a part of the Universe so it has intent too. Its a very simple concept. Unfortunately not one we are taught.

[Ded10c]

Possibly because it is a belief and not something that can be proven.

[MrTwosheds]

It is simple logic, there aren't actually any other possibilities. The Universe is All, you have eyes, so you are a very small part of the Universe seeing with them, it see's with all eye's. The purpose of life is to enable the Universe to perceive itself.
The meaning of life is slightly different question, not a very sensible one at that.

[Red Devil]

*classifies this under circular logic*

[MrTwosheds]

It also highlights the importance of philosophy to science, any question can have an answer, but it will only be correct if you asked the right question in the first place.
How did the Universe start? Pre defines the sort of answers you can arrive at.
Did the Universe have a start at all? Gives you a great deal more flexibility when investigating its nature.