Strat vs everything else

[MrTwosheds]

I would also become defensive and rude

...Now he's just offensive and rude!
You are so right about GEL Sly, I loved watching you destroy "bloodlines" base the other day, even though I was on their team.
He lost that game by failing to work as a team, Nero and me spent half the game standing around in base as the other 2 wasted the ships to feed their ego's. Nero and me are obviously such "retarded noobs" that were not worth spending 20 scrap on...

[Ded10c]

I'm beginning to like you now, Sly

You are most definately right about GEL. The only member of them I've regularly come into contact with is BillyBoy / !guana, whos ego invariably earns him a ban every time he visits.

[Zero Angel]

In game, I like to type on all chat frequently as if I am God himself, frequently making statements such as "GOD IM GOOD" and "WOW YOU SUCK SO MUCH GET A LIFE LMAO". I do this not because I really think I am the best, but simply to get into the enemy's head. So, if you are new, try to develop a thick skin.

I do that myself, especially to guys I know understand that it's a joke. I find it funny, even when it's done to me. Don't have the opportunity to spam taunt hotkeys like that at Sly, but when I do its always fun to 'give a little back'.

[Nielk1]

The Egos around were why I stopped playing regularly. I don't care about winning, I care about learning new strategies and anything that wasn't previously known. With most people the game devolves into the same strategy and then they yammer on and on about how great they are for just being another replicant of prior greatness. The only person I would have respect for in that regard is the one who first created the strategy that is now so commonly used.

I find the game fun even when I am losing, or at least I used to. If I get hit by the BZ2 equivalent to Zergling rush for the 50th time in a row, I don't see the point.

[Zero Angel]

(double post)

[Zero Angel]

If I get hit by the BZ2 equivalent to Zergling rush for the 50th time in a row, I don't see the point.

That's MPI for you. Play some strat. A game where you actually have to think on your feet. There's no huge attack wave of stupid enemies. Just other cunning humans who will constantly try to out wit you.

Better yet, stick it through, develop a decent level of skill, and see just how wrong you are about what you *think* strat is.

[MrTwosheds]

The only "Zergling rush" of bz2 strat, is where, after the first dogfight, commanders build empty scout after empty scout and their thugs "camp" the enemy recycler, preventing them from building anything in the most critical period of the game. It is less popular in 1.3 than it was in 1.2 and less successful, camping from 30 meters up in the air made it a very difficult thing to fight off, now at least the attackers fall back down to where they can be engaged with. Most commanders now prefer to try and build full scouts with laser/chain/shad to gain dominance in the field and do not want to risk suppressing their income/build speed with excessive empty production.
Most games now also use the starting turrets, they either help prevent rec camping or help to take a strategic part of the field.
Some people still insist this is "Noob" they will then kill your first scavs and then come and camp your undefended rec ... often leading to a quick end to the game.

[Fulmen]

Better yet, stick it through, develop a decent level of skill, and see just how wrong you are about what you *think* strat is.

+1

[Nielk1]

If I get hit by the BZ2 equivalent to Zergling rush for the 50th time in a row, I don't see the point.

That's MPI for you. Play some strat. A game where you actually have to think on your feet. There's no huge attack wave of stupid enemies. Just other cunning humans who will constantly try to out wit you.

Better yet, stick it through, develop a decent level of skill, and see just how wrong you are about what you *think* strat is.

This just proves that people don't understand what they are talking about. For one, I was playing STRAT before you were around, before I became a public community member, I just don't see the point to anymore. Second, when I say Zergling rush of BZ2 I don't mean a spam of units, I mean a ubiquitous strategy for that all over important win.

I was in no way alluding to MPI when I said that, but if your you had to bring it in in some sort of STRAT vs MPI bullshit. The truth is that nearly every START game boils down to the same series of events. I can write it in a state machine with no more than 50 states. That is just sad. Sure, MPI has similar issues, but at least with MPI if you try to do something unorthodox you don't get the default slam put on you.

I am getting tired of all this "get some skill" bullshit I've been hearing if I make a reference to something. You all clearly have no idea of my history with this. If STRAT was the game of chess it was when the game first came out I would be happy, as it is of all the possible enumeration of events those that occur always fall within the same basic edge-path.

I did not have the name Nielk1 until around 2003, 2005 for Battlezone IIRC, before that I had no name, but I played. I was the one actually using the damn AI units for flanking.

The truth of this guide is it will work, and it will work because everyone else is basically doing the same thing. Predictive measures gleaned will always work because everyone is doing the same basic thing. I mod to end this repetitive mediocrity and apparently the fact that I do so instead of participating in this charade of so called 'fun' apparently leaves me open to these comments.

If I had any interest perhaps I would try to get my skills back but I just don't see the value in playing something where the player-base refuses change; especially in something so otherwise meaningless. It is flabbergasting that everyone just sticks to the same old 'guaranteed win' strategy when wining and losing mean nothing more than a bit here or there. This game is not even on a ranking latter and yet the need to win is still so strong that the journey there is a watered down replication of every past experience.

What is the point of that?

[Sly]

Wow...you seriously just compared mpi and strats in terms of strategy? Of course you will win in an mpi. I have literally beaten mpi using nothing but scavs. It is true that a lot of people use a similar build style and format (but wtf do u expect when you have less than 10 buildings to choose from?). I myself use different strategies, but only when I see that it is most advantageous, such as making pulse las tanks instead of las fulls when I see that I have more loose intake. Sorry man, but you can't seriously say that you've played this game or were even any good at any point. Your posts are well worded and to someone who doesn't play it may seem to make sense, but seriously? You're trying to feign a knowledge of this game to people who've played longer than you (no, you haven't played strats longer or earlier than me, NOR Zero Angel).

[Nielk1]

Wow...you seriously just compared mpi and strats in terms of strategy?

No I didn't you need to learn to read. I was noting that MPIs at least give an easier range of strategy application as you don't have to worry about someone taking you out with a 99.9% win strategy (frankly those shouldn't exist). And you don't always win an MPI if you play it like I like to, what would be the point of that? Winning vs. a computer only means you can beat its basic command logic. MPI is simply the only place that you don't get the "Zergling rush of BZ2" slammed on you after the first 5 minutes where if you didn't do the exact same thing your fate is decided.

Of course you will win in an mpi. I have literally beaten mpi using nothing but scavs.

Invalid per above.

It is true that a lot of people use a similar build style and format (but wtf do u expect when you have less than 10 buildings to choose from?). I myself use different strategies, but only when I see that it is most advantageous, such as making pulse las tanks instead of las fulls when I see that I have more loose intake.

Minor derivations are not truly a great variety but only a small variation. The shear variety that is possible in a game is almost never explored. We are not talking a simple weapon change, we are talking tactics on the level of troop movements, ruses, flanking, etc.

Sorry man, but you can't seriously say that you've played this game or were even any good at any point. Your posts are well worded and to someone who doesn't play it may seem to make sense, but seriously? You're trying to feign a knowledge of this game to people who've played longer than you (no, you haven't played strats longer or earlier than me, NOR Zero Angel).

You seriously have no idea do you? Its sad that you need to try to claim something like "you don't play" or "you haven't played as long as you say you have" to try to defeat anything I say. I've been playing pretty damn long. I got BZ2 because of my time in BZ1. I have been both playing and modding Battlezone II from the age of 10 or 11 so I beg to differ on any claim you could possibly have to being around longer than I have been, best you could manage was the same amount of time less you had a beta. I grew up on this game, seems some of you never grew up at all. (The shear note of my age and the fact I had little to do other than the game then schoolwork should help you understand how much time I was able to sink into it in those early years.) I don't like to mention my time back then as a player because, as I was 11-12-13, I was immature. I don't like some of the things I did back then and I see no reason to live with them to my name when I have far bettered myself in the years after. Of course, what I did back then pales in comparison to what happens now.

I remember when elitism was rare.
When games were fun win or loose.
When to win was NOT the objective, but simply to put up a fight that kept your enemy guessing to the end.

My years here have taught me that people are shallow and for the most part untrustworthy. I now bide my time, what little I have, creating something better than people, at some point possibly to replace them all together. With the elitism and attacks that go on, people, at least those who facilitate that behavior, should be replaced.

And now you all know things about me you never did, historically and possibly future.
This community has made a monster.

[Zero Angel]

I hereby request moderators begin splitting parts of this topic at about this point:

The Egos around were why I stopped playing regularly.

...

I get hit by the BZ2 equivalent to Zergling rush for the 50th time in a row, I don't see the point.

They are irrelevant to the objectives of the OP, which are to orient newbies towards strategy game play and provide tips and information. Perhaps name the splitted topic to something like 'Why I hate Strat'.

[Nielk1]

Yea split was needed, all this came from me making a comment that the STRAT games mostly worked out the same way that someone really didn't like.

[Zero Angel]

I was noting that MPIs at least give an easier range of strategy application as you don't have to worry about someone taking you out with a 99.9% win strategy (frankly those shouldn't exist). And you don't always win an MPI if you play it like I like to, what would be the point of that? Winning vs. a computer only means you can beat its basic command logic. MPI is simply the only place that you don't get the "Zergling rush of BZ2" slammed on you after the first 5 minutes where if you didn't do the exact same thing your fate is decided.

You have a lot of misconceptions

There *is* no 99.9% win strategy, except for killing the first 2 scavs before they collect enough loose (but if the commander sends his first 2 scavs out to a dangerous place, then the fault lies with that commander) -- there is only good strategy and tactics that increase your chance of winning. Stay together, try to gain an advantage in the opening dogfight, use or develop basic defenses, balance defenses with tech (too much defense means you lag behind on tech, too much tech not enough D means your base is ripe for hitting), control the loose scrap, and then apply pressure, where possible to the enemy defenses and try to break it. These are basic objectives your team must fulfill, HOW you tech up, HOW you set up engagements and what units you build are aspects of strategy that can then be fulfilled once the basic objectives are met. A team which does not fulfill the basic objectives properly will almost certainly lose vs a team that can.

Minor derivations are not truly a great variety but only a small variation. The shear variety that is possible in a game is almost never explored. We are not talking a simple weapon change, we are talking tactics on the level of troop movements, ruses, flanking, etc.

You have *NO* idea of what kind of tactics and strategy are employed in a game and this just proves it. If you have ever heard Sly direct his team, over voice, you would understand that he *does* do all of that. He will order his team to follow him, wait for a target to close in, rush a given target at the appropriate time, order a flank, bait an enemy team in while his comrades surround them. All higher level players have a firm grasp of tactics and know when to do things like run around a formation of enemy thugs to throw them into disarray while his team attacks, or feign retreat on 20hp only to come back and critically decide the outcome of another dogfight and STILL escape alive.

I have been both playing and modding Battlezone II from the age of 10 or 11 so I beg to differ on any claim you could possibly have to being around longer than I have been, best you could manage was the same amount of time less you had a beta.

I don't know about that. Sly has been playing since the 1.1 days. I myself, have started in 2001 -- perhaps not as soon as you have, but I've probably logged 20 times more hours in strat than you. I have explored all aspects of BZ2, from stratting to modding to beta testing. I think its silly that you try to defend your credibility when talking about strat. Having a foray into strat in the early bz2 days and then spending the past 6 or 7 years modding and testing, I think, lowers the kind of perspective you would actually have.

I remember when elitism was rare.

I don't know. I can remember *GEL*DS giving me a hard time in 2002 for being a 'noob', and I can remember being really offended. I guess once a certain skill gap is reached, elitism will prosper. It's not a BZ2 thing or even just a gaming thing. Elitism is a fundamental aspect of human nature -- sometimes it's justified, most of the time perhaps not.

When games were fun win or loose.

Who says you are not allowed to have fun when you lose? I have fun all the time a lot of the time when i'm losing. If I don't, its usually because my ego is getting in the way or an external factor (ie: extreme lag) is interfering with the experience.

When to win was NOT the objective, but simply to put up a fight that kept your enemy guessing to the end.

Sentimental garbage. Winning is always an objective. Anyone who plays just to screw around is probably still running their ships into a fully fortified enemy base and spamming their commander with 'I need a ship!'. Humans are programmed by evolution to *want* to win. It is still possible to have fun with the struggle, even if you do not win. There are still players of vet strats who are terrible at it, but they play because it's fun for them. Nothing has changed with time.

[Sly]

There is really just no point in arguing. My statement above still holds true. You know what you are talking about, and you are very smart; with this, you are able to formulate sentences which would fool a person who doesn't live and breath Battlezone 2. I could try to pick apart your sentences in an attempt to prove myself, but I'm far too lazy for that. Rather, I'll simply say that I can "feel" something wrong with your statements when I read them.

p.s. As ZA stated above, humans want to win, in this case you think that you've played more bz2 than most and that you were the only one at an early age to do so. Please, I used to host 15-24 hour DM servers EVERY DAY during my summer vacations as a child. When school started, I was still in middle school, it was so easy to maintain good grades while sitting in class feeling as if every minute was an hour long without battlezone. During high school, I had very little sleep due to the fact that most good players came out at around 11 pm, and by the time I looked at the clock it was already 6 am and time for school. When 1.1 finally began dying out, I began hosting games that would last hours until I got joiners, after months I had enough players who would regularly join my games and host their own, that the amount of servers went back up to a staggering 5-7 anytime during the day (at this time 1.2's always had a scroll bar). Why? Because I knew if anyone installed the game again, they would find themselves in 1.1, and I did everything I could to try and keep the patch alive. I knew that some crappy *DOWNLOAD 1.3 NOW* message wasn't going to help out the 11 year olds who installed the game and had no clue. No, these are not some boastful lies; you think you've logged in some hours with making mods and stuff? Please