Battlezone II Canon Discussion

[Nielk1]

I think that at that point the Scions were powerless to stop it, but yes, it was excavation and research. Simply look at what also collapses when you satchel it.

[bigbadbogie]

Awwww, crap. Means the QF can't exist in the accepted primary timeline...

Accepted primary timeline? It fits with the events of every released mod and the original game...

[Nielk1]

Awwww, crap. Means the QF can't exist in the accepted primary timeline...

Accepted primary timeline? It fits with the events of every released mod and the original game...

Not entirely. Though it fits with a finagle. The problem is mods in development, namely CP2 stuff, granted, the development slowed to a crawl on that when we had the double blow of A: BZU going down and B: People realizing that a community project doesn't mean its all their idea alone. (Probably took us a month to sort out the story mess that had been made when everyone and their grandmother was trying to say what would happen.)

That and it also sort of goes against the unsaid things, the fact that only the Mire ruins had Cthonian writing, the fact there are no Cthonians there, the fact none of it looks remotely Cthonian.

I would love to actually chat in a more real time way with you but the whole timezones thing... ack!

EDIT:
In addition, if you accept Avatar's writings, then the Dark Planet is the Biometaloid that attacked the Cthonians initially. Why would the Cthonians not simply "alchemate" it like they did in in the Mire system in your story? It does not make sense that the Cthonians would suddenly gain a jump in tech right after losing their home world, nor does it follow that they would not use this tech if they had access to it before.

Basically it kills the whole core 'Core' theory on what Core planets are, why they exist, how many they are, etc, which is a... core... focus of the CP2 story's latter half.

[bigbadbogie]

That and it also sort of goes against the unsaid things, the fact that only the Mire ruins had Cthonian writing, the fact there are no Cthonians there, the fact none of it looks remotely Cthonian.

In addition, if you accept Avatar's writings, then the Dark Planet is the Biometaloid that attacked the Cthonians initially. Why would the Cthonians not simply "alchemate" it like they did in in the Mire system in your story? It does not make sense that the Cthonians would suddenly gain a jump in tech right after losing their home world, nor does it follow that they would not use this tech if they had access to it before.

My story has already accommodated for every point you just made.

Why wouldn't they alchemate the dark planet? They did! Alchemation is a two-stage process. Core was complete, and the Dark Planet only half so.

There are no Cthonians there because they fled. You'll find out why in QF2.

Maybe the Mire Cthonians were more into writing than the other 2 factions? Or their buildings were not weathered as badly as those on Bane and Rend.

What does 'Cthonian' look like? The Cthonians had nations, much like humanity. That's like saying that the Eiffel Tower and the Great Wall of China look 'human'.

The 'jump in tech' that the Cthonians made was due to an ancient archeological discovery in the system.

[Nielk1]

All 3 are subjects to a different type of erosion, the original writings are probably long gone on all three planets for this reason.

They had "2" nations of well established design.

They somehow lost this tech after they left then for FE to work.

Meh, it doesn't matter, it just means I can't include the QF2 story in the 'background' to the CP2. I can't start being too specific without just ruining the whole story for anyone if the mod ever gets that far.

[bigbadbogie]

"They somehow lost this tech after they left then for FE to work."

They aren't the same group of Cthonians from FE.

"They had "2" nations of well established design."

Icarus had Hadeans and Olympians.
Earth had Americans and Russians.

There were many smaller nations of both planets. Granted, less on Icarus. But the Core-System Cthonians were of Hadean origin. The Hadean nation was huge. After Icarus was destroyed, many groups of Cthonians from all sects fled independently.

"Meh, it doesn't matter, it just means I can't include the QF2 story in the 'background' to the CP2."

CP2 is dead. It died a long time ago.

The only 'canon' mods to be released since 2005 are both mine.

I expect that QF2 is most likely to be the last canon mod ever released for BZ2, as there is no sign whatsoever that any other mods are even being worked on let alone finished.

From what I read of CP2's story, it is completely whacked out of the canon BZ Universe anyway.

My way, the BZ2 story is tied up properly and the universe can simply get back to the way it was before.

CP2's way is to introduce a ridiculous amount of new alien species and crazy plots, basically turning it into Dr Who.

[Ded10c]

CP2 is still going, just not in public stages get. The story you read is likely from a very long time ago. Only one alien race is introduced (the others being a Cthonian splinter faction and a Core defence system similar to the Cerberi).

[Nielk1]

CP2 is dead. It died a long time ago.

The only 'canon' mods to be released since 2005 are both mine.

I expect that QF2 is most likely to be the last canon mod ever released for BZ2, as there is no sign whatsoever that any other mods are even being worked on let alone finished.

From what I read of CP2's story, it is completely whacked out of the canon BZ Universe anyway.

My way, the BZ2 story is tied up properly and the universe can simply get back to the way it was before.

CP2's way is to introduce a ridiculous amount of new alien species and crazy plots, basically turning it into Dr Who.

Are you referring to all the garbage posted in the past or the stuff now, cause there are a sum total of 3 "new" races (where 1 is a Cerberi archetype and 1 a Cthonian derivative!). 5 if you count variations, but if you count variations FE had 4 since it modified the ISDF and the Scions.

Of these races, the one new race you meet immediately has nearly all of their units fully modeled and ready and are simply missing their buildings. As the other two are variations of existing races, the labor remaining on them is minimal.

I have to surmise you never bothered to read the story bit I posted recently for you to make such accusations or you just want to try to underplay the idea of it ever being completed because it doesn't agree with your 'vision'.

The ONLY, and I mean quite objectively ONLY, devoid of all the 'feelings', issue with CP2 development is time availability. BZRAP is getting a higher priority simply because no one from the community seems to be willing to actually help with the CP when they learn it won't use every one of their ideas. The story as it is now weights in a small bit larger than FE and with *nothing* weird, no time travel, no weird ****.


I don't know what story you have been reading about the CP2 but I frankly find it insulting that when I gave you the opportunity to get information on exactly what is to occur in that story you ignored it and went on to demean it like you have a **** clue what you are even talking about, which by the content of your post, you do not.



With your method, the story of BZ just dies with all the loose ends curled inward. This eliminates entire trains of thought, entire series of events, simply because it makes it EASIER for you. You kill all the grand cycles, you kill all the grand wonder, you kill it all and reduce what could be a universe teaming with unknown life and environments to a bunch of Cthonian ruins we can't even figure out the proper NATION of and some space cowboys.


Things covered by the CP2 story:
Core class planets
Hadean portal tech
The 'grand cycle' (think about Biometal always going attack-defeated-use-war-furies-kerblewy)

If there are more Core Planets, there are by necessity more Cerberi like "races", if there are more Cerberi like "races", well, ****. If there aren't, entire series of species, wiped out.

[Ded10c]

FS1 adds four new races, CP2 has three.

[Nielk1]

FS1 adds four new races, CP2 has three.

Or if you try to long count it 5, which as it is at east twice as long as FS1 (not hard considering how short FS is) and thus released in 2 parts, makes it pretty partly sum.

[bigbadbogie]

Perhaps I'll change my attitude when I see some screenshots, or some other type of proof.

"I have to surmise you never bothered to read the story bit I posted recently"

One cannot bother until they know the option exists. In case you are unaware, I have been doing a full time university course whilst trying to remain sane and make a mod at the same time. I am sorry if I missed one of the 4 million posts on this forum.

"I gave you the opportunity to get information"

Huh?

"With your method, the story of BZ just dies with all the loose ends curled inward"

Not 'dies' --- ends. It brings closure. I believe that closure is needed. To open up infinite possibilities in the story will spoil the original storyline. I am merely paying homage to the original games and the original 'RELEASED' mods story arc. If this isn't done, BZ will die open ended... and it would be a shame. I'd rather it dies with a bang than a whimper.

"The ONLY, and I mean quite objectively ONLY, devoid of all the 'feelings', issue with CP2 development is time availability"

That is 99% of the modding hurdles it is possible to face.

"simply because it makes it EASIER for you"

Easier for me? EASIER? If I was interested in making things easier, do you honestly imagine I would be making 2 extremely ambitious mods at once after having made 2 already and doing a uni course? I am rewriting the definition of difficult.

The last thing that I ever had the time to read about CP2 was that it had stalled indefinitely over massive internal disagreements. That spells 'dead' to me. I have never seen anything other than crazy stories and incessant arguing in regards to CP2.

The only proper mod that I have ever WITNESSED the release of other than my own is Epic mod... which was non-canon and incomplete. Forgive me if I am hesitant to put on my optimistic face when I hear others bragging about their mods - their mods which supply little other than pitiful concept art and then spend the rest of eternity at the bottom of the junk pile.

I am the only modder left in this community who can say otherwise about their work. I get things finished. That is why QF2 is going to be the last canon mod ever released for BZ2, UNLESS somebody else actually starts working.

"You kill all the grand cycles, you kill all the grand wonder, you kill it all and reduce what could be a universe teaming with unknown life and environments to a bunch of Cthonian ruins we can't even figure out the proper NATION of and some space cowboys."

YOU JUST DESCRIBED BATTLEZONE EXACTLY.

That is exactly what it is, and what it should be. It will die the way it began.

I'll finish QF2 this way. I will consider it canon. I will not consider CP2 canon if it deviates from this.

In the end, the only thing that matters to me is how I remember Battlezone. You can remember it as ending with CP2 if you wish.

I'll remember it as BZ1-TRO-BZ2-FE-FS-FS2-QF-QF2.

[Nielk1]

BBB, notice that I never used the word "canon", because NONE OF THIS IS. It is just sad you are trying to call mods canon, especially when its probably because they are your mods.

And BZ started with a back-story, a back-story which you want to kill by simply going back to cowboys and space marines. It is as if you want people to ignore all the info bits on the Cthonian ruins and text in the briefings.

[Ded10c]

Can we get a split in here?

[Nielk1]

I figured the moderators were just being lazy.

[bigbadbogie]

"BBB, notice that I never used the word "canon", because NONE OF THIS IS. It is just sad you are trying to call mods canon, especially when its probably because they are your mods."

Are you trying to say that you don't consider FE canon? FS? They are not my mods and I consider them to be canon in the BZ Universe. I expect that the vast majority within the community concur with this assessment. I will not apologise for considering my own mods canon either. They have been woven around the "canon" storyline and as best I can tell do not interfere with any other existing mods' stories. They were intended for precisely that purpose.

Perhaps the idea of what is 'canon' is subjective anyway.

"And BZ started with a back-story, a back-story which you want to kill by simply going back to cowboys and space marines. It is as if you want people to ignore all the info bits on the Cthonian ruins and text in the briefings."

Actually, I'm trying to make sense of the briefing texts. I'm trying to give a rational explanation for the BZ2 background story without doing anything overtly crazy like bringing in giant, ridiculous mass murdering alien biometaloids. Do you get how absurd that is? It couldn't possibly fit the Battlezone storyline less well. Whether people like it or not, Battlezone is all about "cowboys and space marines". If you want a universe with extremely crazy technology, ridiculous aliens and insanely irrational plotlines, try Mass Effect or Star Wars games.

Keep Battlezone as Battlezone. If you can't accept that... I can. The truth is told by whoever is left standing, or in this case whoever's mod is finished. If CP2 is ever finished and it doesn't completely destroy my plotlines, I will happily consider it canon. As it happens, I doubt that CP2 will ever get on its feet. Do not lambast me for stating this. The truth of the matter is that mods in this community are simply not finished by anybody else anymore. Devs just don't seem to have the motivation.