How do I install battlezone 2 Forgotten Enemies

[Ded10c]

No, Red Devil, you locked it because you didn't like being told by FOUR separate people, in varying states of worn patience, that you should probably fix IA. I'm somewhat offended by that, as should the other three. How in hell do you still have moderator status?

[GSH]

AHadley-
You've been around this community to know that any BZ2 development (patches, mods, etc) is done in people's spare time, and in their own interest. Certain people who never produce anything -- they're only consumers -- have tried to hijack development and insist on doing things the way they demand. That's been an utter fail in the BZ2 community for the last 13 years. You're walking down that path of fail now, please reconsider your approach.

-- GSH

[Ded10c]

My posts have been a progressively more irritated version of "this is probably a higher-priority issue than the ones you've been working on recently, and it might be a good idea to announce that it doesn't work before more people get confused and have to ask", but how it gets interpreted is how it gets interpreted. Understood.

[Nielk1]

AHadley-
You've been around this community to know that any BZ2 development (patches, mods, etc) is done in people's spare time, and in their own interest. Certain people who never produce anything -- they're only consumers -- have tried to hijack development and insist on doing things the way they demand. That's been an utter fail in the BZ2 community for the last 13 years. You're walking down that path of fail now, please reconsider your approach.

-- GSH

I have to argue there is a difference when you get constantly insulted leading up to it. If you look at any exchange in anything, the slightest input to RD about an issue normally ends in RD calling the person who gave the input names. In the case with FE, it's been systemic, where any suggestion or bug notification that isn't buttered with admiration is demeaned (and the people who can do the same things don't butter up their posts that way, they critique properly). Basically the only time RD responds positively is when someone who doesn't have the slightest idea how to mod reports an issue, but when someone who does does, he gets nasty, as if he is taking it as an attack. The broken state of the project is causing some pretty big issues as it is with the community. I've been stuck troubleshooting for people whom don't even speak the same language as I do because they don't want to come here and deal with RD's apparent hostility on the subject of bugs and lack of documentation of fixes.

@RD, about the eye thing, that sucks. Get that sorted. But don't A: take it out on us, or B: use it as an excuse for years of these problems or taking out the frustration on us. I've been having a ton of issues myself the past 2 months and aside from the people I joke about it with, no one here really knows. All you really know is I have not been on the IRC in a while. I don't use it as an excuse and I don't let it get me down, and I certainly don't lash out at random people for over a year because they offer critical critique and suggestions for improvement on something.

[Zero Angel]

I think that GSH has a point in that you have to be a developer to know the challenges that other developers face, especially in regards to dealing with the entitled sense that users have. However I think its also true that if one expects people to play his creation then he should be prepared for criticism. Mod developers face a host of challenges to dealing with bugs (which are already hard to deal with and not possible to test fully by ones self), to the complaints about those bugs (e.g. fix it now!), to not being able to meet the users' expectations no matter how much one wants to.

That said, I think that people mod with the idea of accomplishing ones own grand vision, doing simple maintainence is no fun for a vast majority of developers and any developer who gets into maintenance while having their own vision shackled can quickly become dissatisfied with the situation given the often boring nature of maintenance, especially while facing adversity from the users. However if the developer never wonders that maybe the users have a point then maybe he should re-evaluate his reasons for doing things and try not to lie to himself about why he is really in the project.

Look at open source projects for example (and opensource is a good example because most commits are often done on a volunteer basis). There are a lot of open source projects that can produce high quality software; on the other hand there are many more which ignore user considerations, lacking polish or features that the users want and degrading into something that is only really usable by the developers who are so used to the quirks that the quirks are no longer apparent to the developers (parts of GNU/Linux are a good example of this). My point is that if you want the users to appreciate your project then you should develop it with them in mind as well and be prepared to face criticism along the way, some of which may beyond your power to fully address.

[Ded10c]

I would not have spoken as I did had the issue not been raised first the very day FE13 was released.

[Red Spot]

I think that GSH has a point in that you have to be a developer to know the challenges that other developers face, especially in regards to dealing with the entitled sense that users have. However I think its also true that if one expects people to play his creation then he should be prepared for criticism.

True, but it becomes more than mere criticism when it gets repeated 20 times over and gets an increase in the force people put behind their critisicm. It than soon becomes bossing around.

[Zero Angel]

True that. I think at some point it would be a good chance to evaluate that bossing around to see if there really is any merit in it. I do not believe that even irrational people lack rationality in the points they are making even if their points are obscured by hateful speech or actions; if I truly believed that then I would see them as my enemies and possibly look for ways to abuse them based on the harm I perceive that they have done to me (no one can make you feel inferior without your consent). Rather, somewhere under what I see as irrationality is a rationality of its own, if I cannot steel myself to find out the rationality that underlies the irrational behavior then it is only because I lack the empathetic capabilities to do so or the objectivity and security to look at even poorly framed or non-constructive criticism as just another perspective validated by its own merits, and not simply by its presentation.

Richard Stallman, one of the founders of the GNU project (as in GNU/Linux, the back-end of most of the most powerful servers in the world) warned of the nature of proprietary software, saying that to some extent it is the software which controls and shackles the user; as the software is in extent an expression of the wills of its developers and walling it off (e.g. the source) to users shows an expression of bad faith because the user can not control the software (rather the software controls what the user can do) and it can lead to the abuse of the users in the interests of protecting the developers and those that pay them (when applicable). I'm not advocating at all the open sourcing of 1.3 for example because I know that there are very good reasons why its software is closed source. Nor am I saying that I agree with Stallman's philosophies -- however I simply want to say that his point is well expressed and contains more than a grain of truth to it.

[Nielk1]

One considerable difference here. In the case of 1.3 and GSH, others lack the context of difficulty in the matter of resolving issues. With a mod, many of us understand equally as RD the issues and difficulty.

[TwinShadow]

Nathan brings up a good point, but at the same time, so does Nielk1.

I have crap in my life too. I've got my taxes raised on me this year, thus less money in my pocket. Also, due to cut hours in work, I'll be lucky to make $600 in a given month now due to that reason. I've also been having a lot of problems with my throat that come and go as it pleases. But do I take it out on other people? No, mainly because my problems are more minor than anything, but I still don't take it out on other people.

That being said, I have briefly looked around on the forum, and I have noticed RD being a bit more hostile as of late to criticism. I like criticism so long as its positive and not something stupid like "hey you suck, do this instead of that!" and crap like that. Its partially why I've lost some faith in the BZ2 community as a whole because not only is it a tiny niche market now, but there's really nothing being developed anymore. Maybe once in a while I might see something, but nothing substantial. 'Bout the latest thing so far is the BZClassic Public Beta which ain't half bad so far.

But either way, I'm surprised there's anything going on anymore, but eh..

[Red Devil]

people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. all these attempts at demanding i do something are pointless. it would be like me telling people to hurry up and finish UEP or CP2 or whatever.

like i said last year, people are free to work on things themselves. i uploaded the 1.2 FE MPI source code to squirrel's bzscrap.org last year, but that didn't seem to help anything except maybe for gbd seeing how portals work.

after firing up fe a few hundred times, a brain needs a break once in awhile.

having said that, the vision in my right eye has gotten considerably worse (can't read the top line at the doctor's any more, but left eye is fine so far) and i need surgery on the right eye. this while putting up a new railing on the lower deck in winter at ~2 miles in elevation, etc., etc.

i work at my own pace. if that's not good enough, meh.

[Nielk1]

UEP is what they call "done" because TJ released what he was going to release.
CP2 is progressing rapidly.

As UEP work has ceased, major bugs not being fixed is not an issue because work is not being done in other places instead.
The CP2 is not released, thus, the status of any "bugs" is irrelevant.

They are incomparable to FE13 situation that has lasted for the entire scope of its public release and continued development, as made apparent by the additional patches and versions released that still ignore the major crippling issues.

Sorry to hear about your eye, I nearly died about a month an a half ago, and I am not being sarcastic. I don't let it enter the conversation because its not relevant. And in this case, your eye is extra irrelevant given that it was not been a concern for you during the Scopes of all your other "changes" while ignoring this glaring and significant error/bug.

BTW, GBD's portal code is vastly removed from FE's, and using SetPosition(&matrix) isn't really that complicated.

The problem, RD, is not that you haven't fixed it. The problem is that you attack anyone who mentions it to the point that you have scared away some people I've had to help. Your attacks and retorts are often fraught with non sequiturs as well, trying to compare incomparable things or just insult the people who make points you don't like. You act like no one is as good at this as you are, going out of your way to imply things such as the only reason GBD has portal code is because he lifted it from FE.

Of course, you aren't releasing the FE13 source, just the FE12 source, which has long been available. When told you were making errors and given sugestions on how to fix them you instead told us to just make our own FE13, starting with the 1.2 version which is even older than what you got to use as a base. That's pretty disgusting.

[Ded10c]

Indeed, UEP is finished/abandoned and is not likely to see development any further. We were actively discouraging people from using it upon release.
CP2 is indeed making progress at ridiculous speed, and you may be interested to know that it currently looks to be larger than the entire Fleshstorm trilogy. This is not a guarantee.

When Nielk1 says he nearly died, he isn't joking. He and I talk regularly over Skype; he was really suffering. I won't go into what from, it's not my place.

And as to reworking FE from 1.2, there is nothing to stop anybody from working from FE13_PB6.2 on everything but mission scripts.

[Baconboy]

Seriously, Nielk1 & AHadley have a point. So does GSH, but I think N1 explained the problem perfectly. I've been trying to stay out of this argument (as I have been one of the people asking for IA fixes and I've been one of the people wondering why it hasn't been addressed by RD), but I just thought I should say where I stand/give some backup to those whose side I'm on.

[Red Devil]

you complete bunch of whining juveniles. you have a little college and learn new words like, 'canon' and 'college', then start repeating them every chance you get and suddenly you're all experts in everything...

i have worked on FE. sometimes i get brain numb from working on it, so i take a break. sometimes, i work on G66 or SpaceWars or ZTV or Uler in between testing private builds - something you are all unfamiliar with to say the least - or i play a game on steam of play some BF3 and sometimes i work on real life issues - which this is not.

i know *exactly* what needs to be done with FE. it's easy to bounce around in the back seat screaming, 'are we there yet! are we there yet! are we there yet!', but it's another thing to listen to it while you're trying to drive.

*backhands all the noisy brats in the back seat*

the best thing you can learn in life is that you know nothing and that it takes time and effort to accomplish anything - and time i have little of these days, especially for this nonsense.