Battlezone II Canon Discussion

[Ded10c]

It can't possibly be canon because it's not official media. It's fanon.

If, however, a game developer were to pick up the BZ series and decide to remake FE and FS as official products, then they would become canon. What we accept as correct is purely for us and can never be any different; canon is only ever official.

I'm not sure if you've been around for long enough, but some of the old stories on the Battlezone Classic board (listed as Avatar's Prehistory) fill in gaps in both BZ1 and BZ2. Your side of this argument likely stems from not having played BZ1. Do it, then you might understand better.

[Nielk1]

Nope, nothing is canon beyond BZ1, TRO, and BZ2.

In addition, every single one of the briefings and documents related to BZ2 make perfect sense already. BZ1 and BZ2 even interlink perfectly, it is only misreading that makes people confused. For example, the bits of BZ1 history that BZ2 gets wrong in the manual are wrong because it is specifically listed as a 'leak', it isn't meant to be 'accurate'.

The only reason that new mods have not been released by other modders in a while is because they have lives, school work, and jobs. For example, I just graduated from college Magna Cum ****' Laude with a BS in Computer Science, do you not understand how much time that took? Just because you don't have a life and can churn out mods doesn't make you the only person who matters, quite the opposite.

[bigbadbogie]

"Your side of this argument likely stems from not having played BZ1"

Are you kidding me? I have played BZ1 more times than any other game.

Canon/Fanon. Fine. You got me on semantics. I'm sure that you get the general idea of what I am trying to say.

What makes Avatar's version of the story any better than mine? It's "fanon" after all. Avatar has never finished a mod either. And he's gone and left the community... just like Lizard, Fishbone and every other modder who has proven reliable at some point.

As I said: The truth is told by whoever releases their mod. If I say it's "fanon", then that is exactly what it is. Nobody can claim that their story is the truth without putting into material form.

"In addition, every single one of the briefings and documents related to BZ2 make perfect sense already."

Fine. What are you worried about then? If it makes perfect sense then you surely don't need Avatar's stories or anyone's stories to 'fill in the gaps', because apparently there are no gaps.

"The only reason that new mods have not been released by other modders in a while is because they have lives, school work, and jobs. For example, I just graduated from college Magna Cum ****' Laude with a BS in Computer Science, do you not understand how much time that took? Just because you don't have a life and can churn out mods doesn't make you the only person who matters, quite the opposite."

Do I really have to spell it out for you again? I am doing a full time University course. A Bachelor of Social Science majoring in Politics to be exact. If I can do that and still "churn out mods" then there is absolutely no reason in hell that anybody else can use that excuse. With the little spare time I have I am making significant progress in my modding.

It's all down to motivation, time management and just gritting your teeth and getting the work done.

[Ded10c]

Hmm, maybe it's not you that hasn't. Must be somebody else I remember saying they were waiting for BZC instead.

Avatar didn't just make stuff for BZ2. And I've yet to see Nielk fail to deliver on a project.

There aren't plot holes, but there are gaps. Bits that need just a little extra explanation. Like what the ruins are. The only ones even implied to have been Cthonians are the Mire ones.

Why are we arguing about this at all, let alone here? We've shoehorned the story as a whole out of worse messes than this.

[bigbadbogie]

"There aren't plot holes, but there are gaps. Bits that need just a little extra explanation. Like what the ruins are. The only ones even implied to have been Cthonians are the Mire ones."

I have explained precisely what they are in QF2. Those gaps have been filled.

This is ridiculous. All that this was supposed to be was a relatively insignificant background story for QF2 which I thought tied up the original BZ2 story with it.

If all you people can do is protest that it doesn't fit your crazy visions of what Battlezone should become, then I am wasting my time here. How about giving me a bit of encouragement.
"BBB you're doing a great job spending a **** -load of your limited personal time building the entire future of the Battlezone saga."
If all you can do is whine about how crap my ideas are compared to people's who have never even released a mod in their life, what motivation do I even have to continue? The truth is, I don't need the community. I don't need any of you. I am not making these mods for you. I am making them for myself, and for the unknown player.

QF2 will be finished. CP2 will not. That is what I believe. My story will be told and become "fanon". If you hate it, don't play it. I'm not forcing you to play my mods. I'm only giving the option to you.

I am beginning to see Lizard's point of view more clearly.

[Ded10c]

I'm saying we can make it fit if it doesn't for god's sake. Don't rage at me.

My concern is getting everything linked together into one cohesive story, every single bloody thing. If two things contradict, we only make changes as a last resort. Extra stuff goes around the issues, explaining them.

[bigbadbogie]

"My concern is getting everything linked together into one cohesive story"

You mean 'in theory'. I couldn't care less about the theoretical story. It is a spoiled mess of insanity which completely ruins Battlezone.
Mine is the material story. The story which will actually be told by mods, rather than fan-fiction.

[Ded10c]

The rest of the story is being told by mods as well. Not to sound rude, but you're not the only person who makes those around here.

[bigbadbogie]

I am the only person who finishes them.

[Nielk1]

I am the only person who finishes them.

That can only be proven true if we all die tomorrow.

In fact, I have a mod out to my name, technically two even though the first is included in the second. While parts of it are unfinished as the package was designed to be modular there was no reason why the parts that were finished could not have been released. This project is the UEP, which while you are probably completely ignorant, in fact in includes several mods of completely original content I was working on myself that could have been released independently.

To say you are the only one who finishes mods is not only ignorant, it is moronic and not only false when you consider the future, it is already false at this very moment.

I do suggest that you think before you respond this time.

Up till now pretty much everything works together, even EPIC and Uler work quite well together. In addition, BBB, you are making statements about things you know nothing about. You are saying that basically EVERY MOD THAT COULD EVER BE MADE is

a spoiled mess of insanity which completely ruins Battlezone.

(Except yours of course.)

What is most insulting is that when we try to approach you just to see where we stand, you say that what we are working on is garbage. Is that really the character you want people to know you by?

I am beginning to see Lizard's point of view more clearly.

Oh, ohhhh, and of course you have to get that moronic dig in. Right now I would say anyone who has touched a mod has the right to be pissed off at you. You are bringing up examples of complete lunacy, a case where Lizard suddenly revokes the irrevokable permission to use his work after stuff we are already allowed to have by decree of Slaor got out. Stuff that not only does not consist of any of Lizard's work but the great majority of which we are actually ALLOWED TO HAVE.

You sicken me.

[bigbadbogie]

Does UEP have a single player campaign which furthers the BZ2 plot? I'm pretty sure that it does not. It is not a "fanon" mod. It's an addon pack.

"You are saying that basically EVERY MOD THAT COULD EVER BE MADE is 'a spoiled mess of insanity which completely ruins Battlezone."' (Except yours of course.)"

No, I am saying that about CP2 which is clearly taking BZ in a crazy direction! I am also referring to Avatar's and other people's fanfic stories which ridicule the real Battlezone storyline. They turn Battlezone into something that it is not. Theoretical stories are not being made into mods. They are just fan-fiction. Actual mod stories which fit with other mods and the original storyline are 'fanon'.

"Is that really the character you want people to know you by?"

I don't care. People can know me any way that they wish.

"That can only be proven true if we all die tomorrow."

Nobody else since Lizard finished FS1 has finished a 'fanon' mod. That was 2005. 7 years. More than half of the time since BZ2 was released. I am the only person who has released "fanon" mods in that time.

[Nielk1]

Does UEP have a single player campaign which furthers the BZ2 plot? I'm pretty sure that it does not. It is not a "fanon" mod. It's an addon pack.

You are saying that only a campaign matters, cause I could churn one of those out in about 2 days. A good one in probably a month.

No, I am saying that about CP2 which is clearly taking BZ in a crazy direction! I am also referring to Avatar's and other people's fanfic stories which ridicule the real Battlezone storyline. They turn Battlezone into something that it is not. Theoretical stories are not being made into mods. They are just fan-fiction. Actual mod stories which fit with other mods and the original storyline are 'fanon'.

You don't even know anything about the CP2, its just stupid to make a claim like that. Also, Avatar's story perfectly fits with everything. 99% of what he says is ripped from the INF files in Battlezone 1 that show up if you hit the I key looking at a ruin. You are the only person who is trying to change Battlezone by ignoring entire vast swaths of canon history! I don't even have a problem with that, what I have a problem with is that you can't seem to stop attacking the CP2 (which you clearly know NOTHING about) and you seem to feel the need to replace the actual canon with your 'fanon'.

Nobody else since Lizard finished FS1 has finished a 'fanon' mod. That was 2005. 7 years. More than half of the time since BZ2 was released. I am the only person who has released "fanon" mods in that time.

As I said, I could crap out a campaign in 2 days, a good one in a month, the problem here is that I have this thing called a life, where I am searching for employment. In fact, I have to say that the only people who have had mods released are those who are in a situation of relative ease in their lives. The simple fact is that most of the community is not in such a position. The economy around the world is **** and unless you are a college student who somehow, unlike I was, has free time, or a child in highscool or below, you don't have the physical time to work on such a mod.

In addition, you clearly work int he wrong order on your mods, I know it for a fact from beta testing them. You work on the actual tech trees and races while you are doing the missions they already exist in. The actual campaign is supposed to be made AFTER you make your races, your environments, and so on. All my UEP work was to create systems, system like races, systems like environments. If I take all this work and drop it on a pak, I could make a full campaign mod in 2 days. If I wanted to actually tell a story that required custom assets for a specific campaign, it would take maybe an extra day because of the constant stopping to making those few party assets.

Basically, BBB, you are putting far too much value on the most minor part of the actual modding, the construction of the campaign missions.

The *correct* way to make a mod is roughly like this:
Create a "universe".
Create a high level "story".
Create the races that exist in this story and the environments.
Use those races and environments to form a campaign progression that follows the story (high level).
Come up with the actual missions.
Make the campaign.
Promote some of your environment test maps to either campaign missions or MP maps.
Beta Test and fix/balance.
Release.

Think for a moment about the size of each of these steps, consider your modding so far.
QF1, crappy models, crappy textures, funny VOs, quick campaign. That probably wouldn't take long if not for the fact you were a novice.
FS2, 90% of assets already exist, make a quick variation on the EDF (3 days tops?), use the pre-canned story written for you to make the missions, test them, another quick mod.

Now lets look at FS1. It was literally a mod that was killed THREE TIMES. It was in development far much longer than you realize. And yet you think that because you make a quick mod called QF1 and you added onto the massive base that was FS1 with FS2, you somehow wield the ability to decide what sort of mod is important and what sort of mod matters? Even worse because your mods were either simple or mostly already ready you magically assume that the development cycle is so short that you can demean any body of work that is not also produced just as fast?

Look, the CP2 is being worked on, and it has a good story. The top level story is done, the low level for the first half is done, the races are pretty much designed and in fact they are forming quite quickly. Environments are prepared and test maps are made. It is moving magnitudes faster than the first FleshStorm, yet it is worth less than your QF2?

[General BlackDragon]

No mod is actually canon, not even FE.

In the BZ Universe, it didn't really even happen.

[bigbadbogie]

Does UEP have a single player campaign which furthers the BZ2 plot? I'm pretty sure that it does not. It is not a "fanon" mod. It's an addon pack.

You are saying that only a campaign matters, cause I could churn one of those out in about 2 days. A good one in probably a month.

Do it then.

Finally some screenshots. About time. At least I know it exists.

Basically, BBB, you are putting far too much value on the most minor part of the actual modding, the construction of the campaign missions.

Minor? You have never done it before and you claim it is minor?

[Nielk1]

Does UEP have a single player campaign which furthers the BZ2 plot? I'm pretty sure that it does not. It is not a "fanon" mod. It's an addon pack.

You are saying that only a campaign matters, cause I could churn one of those out in about 2 days. A good one in probably a month.

Do it then.

Finally some screenshots. About time. At least I know it exists.

Basically, BBB, you are putting far too much value on the most minor part of the actual modding, the construction of the campaign missions.

Minor? You have never done it before and you claim it is minor?

I would rather work on MP mods like BZRAP for now since they create the entire base asset structure for good modding practices and they would get a lot more play after they are proper balanced than any SP campaign. Also, I was working on MP missions for a while, though the release of the UEP with it included even though it wasn't done sort of killed it. MP missions are much more difficult to code.