Scion balance discussion

[vlad_C0M]

So , thank u all for discussion.
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(I say about moderate bz2 == help to balance it )
I want to say, about "non standart" scion strategy on early isdf attack.

This is upgraded Centry. (forge=>doter). (is fast and can stop upgraded isdf scouts and early assault tanks) Centry get Gauss gun (senk u for it very very much) Stasis, with them scion can rebuff Isdf.
But rocket tank, is great trouble.

Stasis very bad shield vs rocket tanks . And aiming missiles on Centry very fast. (I think maby it \ so..once again for balance ... but Centry in early strategy useless only, because cant stop rocket tank. And take Scion == Only One Variant strategy (upgr=antenna=quill==stronghold==Arc Cannon\Blink)

It does strategy for scion monotonous, madness for attempt this strategy. Without compromiss,
Or u lose, some early or some later. (because scrap economic is broken for Centry\or for other variant using scion features)
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I think need changing rock tank missile aiming, on Lancer(very slowly) or Centry(not very, but !some! slower than now).

I think it take a chance has different strategy in game vs Isdf. (On Classic mode, it needed accurately)
In a VSR , needed but not so expressed(for lancer slowly \ for Centry little bit slowly) But I have idea change rock tank aiming missiles on Warrion (more faster than now, but not so expressed as on Mauler ))
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Do not think . I also love warrion with Gauss+Arc\Blink .
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And need , Need testing VSR and doing full compatibility VSR on 6.3 *(a,b,c and next )) ), more faster.
With this big balance trouble (in next == BBT) we chuck away tournament players. == Who now usually are playing MPI (or Isdf vs Idsf exatly)
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Senk u once again for support my discussion.

[Zero Angel]

Actually, Absorbtion Shield is best vs Shadower Missiles in stock 1.3 (I added all the numbers up including explosion damage), its only slightly better than deflection. Stasis is the weakest shield vs Shadowers missiles but not much. Stasis is not a very good choice because of that, so I recommend going absorbtion shielding unless you are fighting against a lot of chain scouts.

In VSR, Absorbtion is the weakest shield type vs Shadowers but only slightly weaker (its designed so that its not very noticable) and Deflection is stronger vs shadowers (much more so than it used to be)

The Sentry was not a bad unit to begin with so while it has been 'buffed' in VSR, the increase in power is rather small. I will never make the sentry stronger against rocket tanks because it's not designed to do that.

The Lancer needed both a cheaper 'upgrade cost' as well as an improvement in forward movement speed to be even worth considering to use in ST games.

Your idea is that maulers should be stronger vs Rocket Tanks and that's a good idea in theory, however this would mean that Salvo or Hornet would have to be nerfed and I can't see any good results from that. Making maulers faster or more armored would cause problems with 'recycler rushing' especially in FFA games. In VSR, maulers take less damage from guntowers and drop much less scrap when killed but every other balance change that I can think of to make them better vs Rocket Tanks would have a bad result in other parts of the game.

[vlad_C0M]

What do u think about : "Sonic wave mirrow damage of mirrow shadower rocket on rocket tank ? Without the condition Friendly Fire Is On?"

Or give Stasis shield some more defend vs shadower missle and Little bit more vs Chain gun? (because is the First scion shield!))?

This is actually problem.. most of features becomes useless..
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(about u not bad ideas)
If lancer will have more speed and powerfull then All make from Lancer Fast Rush Units... only forge + antenna.
If maulers will walking fast , as u say it will disbalance with recycler terror. And MPI will transmutation (vs Scion) in a Special Hell mode of BZ2 )).
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I think solution of problem "Rock tanks early rush Scion" == Work on the type of weapons shadower missile. (Stasis shield need Half defending of Absortion and Half of Deflection) but need Specially more defend ONLY vs shadower missile(not very good defend as Deflection, but much more than now! == maby +5% defend specially for shadower missile) , + Little bit more time aiming.
(I editing my last messages , for a little more understanding)
====>>>>>
My idea == Change Lancer and Centry "imageSignature". (Not depends on Stasis ) or Arc weapon )

===>>>>>
Scion Stasis is needed because it is only be available at first..
I think change data of stasis == 9% Defending of Enengy weapon \ 13% defending of Impact weapon (etc Shadower Missile) ...

[Zero Angel]

It's not possible to remove 'friendly fire damage' when sonic wave is used. Just aim your sonic wave carefully, that is all.

It is possible to make shadower missiles do less damage to stasis shielding, but it is not possible to make it lock-on slower against 'only' units with stasis shielding, since the lock-on speed is controlled by each unit's "imageSignature" value and this cannot be changed by having different weapons equipped. However now in VSR, deflection shield defends against shadower the best and deflection shields are available before absorbtion is. Stasis do not *need* to be buffed now; it is now only more useful when ISDF is using a lot of combined arms (e.g. chain+laser).

As far as Lancers go, not all commanders rush lancers out. The thing about Lancer is that all of their combat weapons are made useless when Phantom VIR is used by the ISDF team (multilock missiles cant lock onto invisible targets). Lancers are now only good at supporting a scion team that is fighting a lot of empty scouts (which cannot equip phantom vir) and forcing the enemy team to fight off WASP missiles.

[vlad_C0M]

Ok.. Its interesting )) really
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Sorry for my English! But u dont undestand me, little bit .
(I editing last message)
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And what do u think about editing "ImageSignature" of Lancer and Centry?
And maby change image signature of Solar Flame ?? (...maybe do that shadower missile can stoped by solar flame >??? or it is drivel? How do u think?
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And I think about change Ammo Requests of Gauss Gun (A!) . Need a little bit Decrease ammo Request. How do u think ?
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I play vs Isdf ) (and with big AIP bugs VSR Standart on 6.3 b )
And I see than rocket tanks at first == scions's GG.
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There are two ways of development baze at first:

1. ( (( only one effective) == (Antenna)
2. upgForge + Doter (not effective == now useless way, But It interesting == and Open New Capabilities!)
(I talk about it with some gamers bz2 ! And many people support this idea.)
--- because Gauss Gun can be used not only by Centry's, Guardes can take it so!!! (this features take more interesting strategy!)
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And I think need post there All Weapon Data. And by voting Change It For Balance. (And Build ReBalanced 1.3.6.4 as Full installer with VSR (without bugs in "VSR Standart" MPI Mode) , and later teach AIP play for experemental races ??. )
Change VSR date for balance, once again) (I read most of debates on Bz2maps , Bz2scrap )) , and on forum developing VSR)
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-(I now about solar flame as turrel killer, but solar flame have other function == means diversion of missiles , this function is primordial, but not correcly revision \ reworked, and need more radius evading of "fire and forget of scout", or add to life solar flame about 2 seconds)

ZeroAngel senk u for advise. But I really test it. And I know Lancer need More Little Image Signature. (shadower missile aiming .. with normal speed. Just now I test it. Maby need add about 1 second! (for a little bit longer aiming). (or maby give lancer More Powerfull radar for detecting rock tank through terrain by [T]??? )
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I have idea about seekers. When rocket already aiming and start launching, give seeker ability == magnet shadower rocket on himself.
-- (it will seekers more popular )) )
(In VSR , have a white spots in information about weapon by dint of , and little bit things in VSR need revision)

[Zero Angel]

A few things.

- Lancers already have a low ImageSignature. They are strong against missle scouts that don't have Phantom VIR.
- Sentries can use 'Seeker Mine' which is very effective at stealing shadower lock-ons (so that the sentry can not be targeted very well by shadowers). Seeker mines have been improved greatly in VSR and now are more safe to use (you can not be killed by your own seeker when backing up).
- Gauss Gun is still the preferred scion weapon for most scion players. It is chosen over Ion Gun and usually EMP Lockdown. I don't think Gauss needs any further improvements. Also Assault Gauss is strong against everything. Try to build turrets upgraded with Gauss gun and you will see what I mean.
- Solar Flare is not really designed to be a shadower countermeasure. Solar Flare serves a purpose as a 'turret killer'.

Your best method to counter unsupported rocket tanks is to build a lancer that has Multilock/WASP and to shoot wasps at it while hidden behind terrain.

[vlad_C0M]

I edit my last message . So I see that u you are taking a direct in credits VSR. And I trust u.
But some things and features in bz2, need reworked, and balancing. In VSR too. I think all players , and multiplayer accustom to "one way style in game". And I think changes needed.

(I have a small idea, to acquaint xgm.ru (rus modmaking site) with battlezone2. (When I was creator my MOD on warcraft3==Unfortunately I did not finish until the end of ...)

I have some experience about balancing. (and I help balancing some projects, about strategy lines..)
so my profile on xgm

[Zero Angel]

Battlezone 2 is over 13 years old. Please understand that after this long it is difficult to get people to accept changes in playing style. There have been people who have spent over 10 years perfecting their own playing style and tactics, VSR is designed to appeal to these people or at least be found to be acceptable by them. People often believe that when an enemy team uses a new strategy that has been improved or made viable that it's overpowered because they simply do not know how to properly counter it (even if it is balanced, it can be thought to be OP). This is why VSR is limited in the scope and magnitude of what is allowed to be changed; if anything improving the 'standard' bz2 experience comes before allowing a greater variation of strategies and tactics.

I would welcome anyone to make a recycler variant that allows for an even greater variation of strategy than VSR does while not invalidating the tried and true aspects of BZ2 game mechanics and strategies -- however as it is, I have to be conservative about how game balance is changed.

[Cyber]

Battlezone 2 is over 13 years old. Please understand that after this long it is difficult to get people to accept changes in playing style. There have been people who have spent over 10 years perfecting their own playing style and tactics, VSR is designed to appeal to these people or at least be found to be acceptable by them. People often believe that when an enemy team uses a new strategy that has been improved or made viable that it's overpowered because they simply do not know how to properly counter it (even if it is balanced, it can be thought to be OP).

Indeed.

vlad_c0m, if you want we can talk on TS when we meet next time, I can explain you everything about scions and their counter.

For TS: Ugonland is temporarily down again, who knows why.
Using "bzscrap.org"- TS or "gel-guild.net" - TS instead

[vlad_C0M]

Cyber, I can't catch\meet you online in any way. I want to have a talk already with you on this subject!
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Subj : about theme, I want tomatoes in my address, from here too.
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PS: Warrions with Sonic+Gauss now works well because Friendly fire is ON by default , (thanks to ZeroAngel) , but he promised it to correct by all means, and that unfortunate AIP can miss and get to itself. And it generally is inadmissible.

Okay, Fang + EMP Steam = works well! But it doesn't approach if nearby to be the player! Only for staying alone 1\2 rock tanks.
(((PSS:And I remind! Scion has no weapon of distant fight in A mode, except the Ion\Gauss Gun )))

[Red Devil]

what about Archers?

[Nielk1]

I think the best chance to tweak balance will be in a multi-race situation, since the balance is already up in the air due to the new factors.

I like the idea of making shield damage make more sense with respect to Shadower in stock though, the nature of the shields should not be hidden math.

[vlad_C0M]

Red Devil : Archers will destroy by Thermal Hornet - very well , and very quick. Archers On Doter \ Antenna-Observer not effective. Acid clodes , take heavy units sooo less damage. Popper take heavy units little bit damage. (1 rock tank can destroy base with 3 archers on defence) Default Archer's mortal very slow..

I test any situation... )) And always I came to the same result.
PS : Now I told about VSR 4.4 pre2 too... (about stock mode .... ok I will simply keep silent)

Sonic wave now can stop any thermal hornet tanks.. Because Friendly Fire is On by default.. But ZeroAngel , want to Off this feature.
post

[Red Devil]

even if they are deployed in the hills away from their target?

a good way to test races is to pit them against one another using similar AIP's (saves time); can also have the DLL hand out weapons according to ivar values set in the shell or in-game conditions in order to test weapon countering, etc.

[vlad_C0M]

Red Devil : I wrote some ideas in VSR wish list.