Scion balance discussion

[vlad_C0M]

Hi , senk u for patch. Maby I can tell something about balancing scion vs human?
I think scion need more slowly aiming from Rocket tank on Lancer. (and multilock , (in morph = swamp ??) need more damage (and more HP of rocket ... or more speed..) ... soo... cause is impossible , scion lowered down and wounded... for balance (...but overdid with this) and most of st now = isdf vs isdf ..

Now scion haven't defend for rocket tank !! is big trouble ...

[vlad_C0M]

and once again, sorry for my english/ :\

[Red Devil]

since seekers have very high heat/image/radar signatures, seekers are a good counter for rockets.

[Red Devil]

agreed about the early scion strength = weak, but maybe that is intentional; once they can get past that, not so weak...

[vlad_C0M]

... ISDF have Attila walkers ... rocket tank (usually with (A)hornet=400 distance -- ).. Bomber ... and APC... (special for archers) ... and .. and and ))...

Scion was power... and where "Lancers Stinger(C) ... version 1.00 ???" with stream of stinger ... *it was disbalance ok .. ( ...
damage of blast increased!(ok...for balance) Isdf Scouts very fast moving with rockets .. and max handleability. (ok its features of isdf)

SWAMP rocket (A)Multilock rocket, have small hp... and very slow moving ...there are only three rockets.. (WITHOUT thermally induced ... maby it actually for "staying alone 1 rock tank and nothing more)... (about multilock rocket(C) ... and complete uselessness it, I hold my emotions ))) because I dont want be annoying with "scion fun features")

I say my ideas ... how to balance it.. maby my opinion is noticeably.. for somebody .. who Play for Scion , and who know hardship , with rocket tank very well...

I not suggesting delirium, like "give scion super gun with 999999 damage and ...etc"
I think about it Many ... and many times...

Thanks u for reading this (sorry for English and emotionality )

(About Sonic Wave : "until you arrive at a warrior , (or blink) 2-3 rockets cause to u damage... if it is 2 rocket tanks ... and What will you do with the 4th example?? Lay out the video will show their skills on warrion vs rocket tank with support assault tanks.) Sonic Wave can stop shadower missile .. but only if !friendly fire! is on then shadower rocket can mirrow damage to attacker)
but it options isn't using in most of st

[Zero Angel]

Scion Rocket Tank Defense = Sonic Wave Warrior/Scout deflecting missiles while attacking with Titans

EDIT: Also, Lancers are decently effective. VSR lancers are even more effective as rocket tank counters than stock Lancers are due to the lower cost of a modified one (60 as opposed to 65) and the fact that the WASP can not get shot down as easily by Shadowers.

[vlad_C0M]

and without titans ? rocket tanks appear much earlier then titans and maulers (Please read the above pls)

[Zero Angel]

VSR is a balancing recycler variant that addresses some common balance complaints; including improving scions' ability to counter rocket tanks, scion empty canceling or ISDFs ability to counter warriors. It's mostly designed for strategy play. Other players are more than welcome to make their own recycler variants since the feature is built into BZ2 to do so without causing you to have bad assets when joining stock games.

[vlad_C0M]

VSR 4.3 (a) dont correctly work in 1.3.6.3 (b) ... Instant computer = freeze down.
in multiplayer AI do very much mistake.
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(but on 6.2 , i cant be a server) (
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I think 6.3 already have "corrections in balance" .. I see http://zeroangel.overminddl1.com/hosted ... -Notes.txt .. And most of troubles had not been noticing. (in VSR, bz2 changed its original form very much... it isn't good)

[Zero Angel]

I haven't tested VSR with 1.3.6.3b; but if 1.3.6.3b has better handling of >4 players than 6.3a has then I will see about fast-tracking a compatibility fix. Right now, strat players are still playing 6.2 (using IP join facilitated over teamspeak) due to some problems introduced in 6.3. Strat players are my target audience right now, but I plan to eventually make VSR more useful for MPI players by having Hadean/Anti-Hadean and Ice Cream/Anti-Icecream AIPs developed.

You are welcome to create your own recycler variant with more conservative balance changes.

[vlad_C0M]

Team Speak server 74.91.115.34 is down?? (about week) When TS server begins to work?
Thank you for the idea of ​​joining for moderation bz2 . It is a honor for me .
--
Need testing VSR and doing full compatibility VSR on 6.3 *(a,b,c and next )) )
Needed in stock the old version of Scion/Isdf Recycler (v 1.00 with some balancing.. quite a bit balancing!)
Need doing something with rocket tanks \ lancers for balance. (now st in 6.3b , scion vs isdf == most potential have isdf )

In all version = Sonic wave need mirror damage without friendly fire! - I think it is the original idea of developers bz2. (I say this as a prophet, = joke ) )

[Zero Angel]

Yeah, Ugonland TS is down for a week or so. Many players are now using bzscrap TS as the TS server in the meantime, but there are less players online as a result of the 'home' server being down as well as the numerous restrictions that BZScrap TS has to compensate for the fact that it's less actively moderated.

I dont know what you mean by moderation. There have been no changes to the moderators list planned, to my knowledge.

Testing is ongoing. VSR needed a small change to be made compatible with a security feature added to the way that 6.3 loads recycler variants. Nothing *should* break in 6.3a or 6.3b since those are supposed to consist of mostly networking changes with a few bug fixes.

The v.1.0 release of the Battlezone 2 highly unbalanced though to my knowledge there was at one point a decent portion of the community who stayed on the 1.1 patch (even after the release of the 1.2 patch) because they liked its quirks (?); balance has been incrementally changed in every release of BZ2. Generally the 1.2 and 1.3 versions of the game are the most balanced.

In regards to how rocket tanks affect balance on stock 1.3, the vote still goes with Scion still having the most powerful lategame in 3v3 to 5v5 because of how survivable that a well-piloted blink warrior is. Rocket tanks are only extraordinarily powerful in situations where the Scion team is underteched; and this will often happen if the Scion team is playing much worse than the ISDF team; or in smaller games (1v1, 2v2) where AI is more important and you don't really have the option of 'ganging up' on an RT to prevent it from horneting down your entire base. 1.3 stock has an exploit called 'empty canceling' for the scions which can be used to accelerate their teching and can make them prepared against an early ISDF rocket tank (which, when defended, can not be defeated by a scion team that is still using plasma cannons! since all cannon upgrades for scions are essentially 'late game tech'). In my opinion empty canceling is bad; but simply removing the empty canceling exploit without filling the hole created by its removal is just as bad from a players' perspective.

My solution for VSR was to remove empty canceling while also giving scions the ability to counter a fast rocket tank without requiring lategame tech (sonic cannon); that is why some of the scion midgame tech has been upgraded. The idea is to give the commander an option to dump some of his resources into mid-game items (at the expense of delaying his fast tech to blink) rather than forcing him to essentially 'tech rush' to the endgame stuff (namely blink) which is the only viable strategy for ~95% of scion commanders in 1.3 stock.

[MrTwosheds]

VSR is the strat communities take on adjusting balance issues, and a good one. However balance issues in the game as a whole are ultimately very much down to the way each player plays and its almost impossible to please everyone. Generally the 1.3 development approach has been to leave the stock things as they were as much as possible (while rebuilding the universe itself around them) and only "fix" things when they really are broken. This is the best approach, if players feel strongly that things are not right, they are free to contribute their own visions via addons like VSR.

[TwinShadow]

By addons, they're recycler variants. Which is actually a nice addition to BZ2. Easy to make to have variances in different recyclers and such.

Balance issues between ISDF and Scion has always been around and no one will ever shut up about them. They've both very different in how they're played. ISDF have the advantage early in the game, but mid-game if Scions control at least 3-4 pools, they will rule the field. Late game when both tech trees are fully built, then it becomes a toss-up between who has better strategies between the two.

[Zero Angel]

Well the entire point of ISDF vs Scion has always been to fight so aggressively in the early-midgame (where you have the advantage, with laser and chains) that you prevent scion from getting lategame tech. In large games once you are getting hit left and right by a 5-man team in blink warriors, it doesnt matter if you have attillas and RTs, the warriors will constantly disrupt and line break then blink home for pods; you gotta play smart and constantly be supported by other thugs or fixed defenses. It just so happens that the fast RT is one of the only hopes that the ISDF team has if they can't continuously 1-pool the scion team to prevent them from getting blink. As a Scion player it feels like a lame victory for the ISDF because of how difficult it is to counter. In VSR it can be countered, but also requires that the Scion commander stop teching to arc (or blink) and react fast with midgame units and weapons.