BZe/1.5

[Apollo]

Would it surprise you that two other developers consider this all piracy?

[Psychedelic Rhino]

How you can describe 1.5 as a mod is beyond me.

As I've said before, I quit following BZ1.5 after 4 or 5 months after the builds had been raining down every few days. It was just too much to keep up with IF you wanted anymore than 2 or 3 people to play. If you wanted to follow the minutia of changes, it was cool I suppose. It must have been an orgasm for those into it.

But BZ1.5 is indeed a mod. You may not remember, but I made a crude video of one of the changes that makes it abundantly clear it's a mod. Don't get me wrong, I loved the change, but a mod just the same.

[Ded10c]

I fail to see how a change like that makes it a mod. This is a patch, by both software standard and legal definitions of the word.

All of the infinite 1.4 variations and Radigator's 1.8 are, by software and legal definition, a mod. (Likewise BzE, but that much is obvious.)

Would it surprise you that two other developers consider this all piracy?

So wait, this is piracy and your and Spock's installers (for the game and its expansions) aren't?

[Zax]

How you can describe 1.5 as a mod is beyond me.

As I've said before, I quit following BZ1.5 after 4 or 5 months after the builds had been raining down every few days. It was just too much to keep up with IF you wanted anymore than 2 or 3 people to play. If you wanted to follow the minutia of changes, it was cool I suppose. It must have been an orgasm for those into it.

But BZ1.5 is indeed a mod. You may not remember, but I made a crude video of one of the changes that makes it abundantly clear it's a mod. Don't get me wrong, I loved the change, but a mod just the same.

A patch is fixing something that is broken. The sasquatch was obviously broken, given a fatal design flaw that was useless against anything that wasn't a Chinese building or CCA recycler (and even then). This fixed that.

Shot convergence really doesn't effect other units since the HPs are placed in a reliable location.

If you want to get all canonical about it, then the mission it debuted (one with factory, scav, and constructor) it would have been in the debriefing "Sasquatch is being retooled to actually be able to shoot things." and you never would have seen the first model again.

[Psychedelic Rhino]

A patch is fixing something that is broken. The sasquatch was obviously broken, given a fatal design flaw that was useless against anything that wasn't a Chinese building or CCA recycler (and even then). This fixed that.
Shot convergence really doesn't effect other units since the HPs are placed in a reliable location.

If you want to get all canonical about it, then the mission it debuted (one with factory, scav, and constructor) it would have been in the debriefing "Sasquatch is being retooled to actually be able to shoot things." and you never would have seen the first model again.

Are you kidding me? The Sasquatch was hardly broken. At least no more 'broken' than any other ship in the game. If you want to go down the road of "broken", I can make an argument practically all ships in BZ are "broken" in some way.

The Sasquatch IS able to shoot things. As a matter of fact, with 2 mags, it is able to do righteous damage to any ship it fights. Under the right situation it is able to be a dominant vehicle. If used well and correctly, the Sasquatch is able to destroy most ship with one 2X shot of its mags.

Where the Sasquatch has a marked disadvantage, is when it has weapons like mini-guns or ATs, etc. where the weapon's collision box cross section are much smaller and highly separated.

Modifying and allowing it to focus its aim on a ship, or ships (as I show in the video) theoretically amps up its ability to inflict damage.

So, to throw it back in your court, if a ship like a Stealth tank was made to fly, or a Grendel could shoot through its own ships to hit enemy ships, I suppose you'd see that as just an "extreme patch"?

[Ded10c]

Now we're confusing bugs and features this will get messy real fast.

[Zax]

Yes we are. When armed with (its stock) ATs, at 12 scrap, it is less useful than a tank armed with the same thing. Dual mag, a weapon AI will not use therefore rendering that armament useless when commanding them, makes the base price 20 or so. Or 2 bombers. What would you rather have, a mag sasquatch that cannot shoot or 2 bombers?

Golem, for the same price, is the only walker you really see in strats (if any). It can dish out punishing damage at extreme range and will not miss over the length of its range. Though the sassy is the NSDF response to it, the default loadout doesn't matter in this case, but that it cannot use that base loadout effectively.

Since you want to go to war over this I am ready to go. Blast costs 4, 2 of them = 8, and pop gun is 3. Subtracting 1 each for the cost of the crate the ap weapon comes in, 8 scrap is the weapon loadout on a golem, leaving 4 for the vehicle itself. The sas is the same in its loadout of 8 and 4. Only a single one of those weapons can effectively hit a moving unit at a time, leaving the other one wasting ammo as the unit desperately tries to lead. That's poor efficiency.

"Where the Sasquatch has a marked disadvantage, is when it has weapons like mini-guns or ATs, etc." and that is why it is a problem. Guys going through single player and using them are not getting any effect for that 12 scrap. 2 bobcats do a better job for the price and don't react as bad to thumping at that.

"I can make an argument practically all ships in BZ are "broken" in some way."

I can't. I weigh a ship on functionality, cost, and balance. Sasquatch - function: heavy weapon's platform that dishes out a punishing amount of fire making lesser vehicles enter their flee subroutine. Fails at this function. Cost: Top of the ladder sans day wrecker, so high. Balance: would be if the function was met.

"if a ship like a Stealth tank was made to fly,"

It's function was never to fly, so it would imbalance the unit. Stealth tank is an alternate loadout version, like sas AG.

"Grendel could shoot through its own ships"

That would be clipping, which is cheating. If it gets close enough to the other ship it probably could shoot through it in 1.4. Grendel function is quick, heavy bomber. It is balanced as such. Now if it had a rocket HP at either end widthwise and shot those bombs in a straight line separated by 7 meters, there might be a small problem with that and it would never be used. It also wouldn't balance against the other bombers since both the bombs from the other bombers hit their target at once.

[Nielk1]

Umm, fire convergence isn't a mod... It is technically a feature as a method of bug fixing for the fact BZ2 can only handle single LOS based aiming.

You guys have an agenda here and are trying to color the words to fit your agenda. 1.5 is a proper patch, just like any other, it simply isn't official. And further more, by definition, all those little community made variations of 1.4 are also patches, just community patches.

Fixing bugs is not a mod. Adding minor features is not a mod.
Mods are things that have identities, that add entire gaps of story or major systems of content. This is a patch, all it does is change balance and fix bugs, and maybe add the rare feature here or there.

Hell even mods have patches (and hotfixes, the baby brother of a patch). You guys are just twisting the words.

[Apollo]

By how loosely you define a mod and patch all are patches that are sometimes called mods.

You need to think about it in other terms to remove your bias as it clearly shows.

Anytime the copyright protection is disabled or removed without authorisation it's piracy, anyone knows this, anytime the NDA is broken it's the same thing. I have no agenda, i'm just saying.

Any change to the retail game is a mod, i don't care if you call it a fix, feature or otherwise, it's still a modification to the game. Mods are legal and covered under the EULA.

[Psychedelic Rhino]

It is NOT a bug. The same argument of bug can be said for the BDOG Bomber in that it also has a separated hard-point, or the Grizz with 2 SPs, just less so. Or the lander deploys slower than the turret. I suppose they all are broken.

To me, the 'timing issue', or the 'East-West no-damage' issue, or 'escaping to the green screen' to avoid being kicked, or 'alt-tabbing' to avoid damage, those are "bugs". Not a separated hard-point, hard-points mounted too high or too low, etc.

That would be clipping, which is cheating. If it gets close enough to the other ship it probably could shoot through it in 1.4. Grendel function is quick, heavy bomber. It is balanced as such. Now if it had a rocket HP at either end widthwise and shot those bombs in a straight line separated by 7 meters, there might be a small problem with that and it would never be used. It also wouldn't balance against the other bombers since both the bombs from the other bombers hit their target at once.

It's "cheating" when YOU can do it and the other guy can not. Or a mutual agreement on a standard of engagement and one party reneges. The rest of your post is a discussion of balance. Which, by the way, BZE attempts to address with the BZ2-ish ships.

And by the way, in regard to 'pirating', both BZ1.5 and BZE are doing it. Don't fool yourself, neither mod requires the use of the CD, and last I heard, neither had the blessing of the IP holder. But the reason you've never heard me mention it is because it's ridiculous to discuss it. Sort of like eating a grape in the produce section in the grocery store. Yes, technically you are shoplifting. And the ramifications to whoever holds to the IP to Battlezone has about the same concern that 15 or 25 guys play a mod without the CD

War? I had no idea you were such a sensitive dandy.

[Zax]

Take your fingers out of your ears since you are clearly grasping here. Which is strange, since how do you grasp with fingers in your ear? Third finger? hehe

Separate hardpoints yes. Has their separation EVER caused them to laughably miss their target? Never. They are balanced. The lander deploys slower than a turret, but has more (the most) firepower and less armor to compensate. Also, it was a joke ship with a joke weapon. It is balanced in that regard.

Is the sasquatch balanced with the golem? It is already at a significant range/firepower disadvantage, but ammo capacity supposedly balances that. Missing by fatal design flaw ruins the balance. The way the AI targets and aims makes it possible to just sit in between its line of fire or just hit by one, which is like facing down a gun tower with AT on it. Selectively choosing things to point out as broken as a counterargument is just stupid; you are better than that.

Clipping on both sides is a break down of the collision system and is a bug on each side. I meant cheating more along the lines of the argument, since you knew it and I shouldn't have had to point it out in a discussion of mod vs patch.

[Psychedelic Rhino]

Well, I'll call your confused interpretation of the issues and raise with the final decider. . . write the IP holder and ask them if it's a mod and pirated.

[Zax]

You ignored the entirety of the issue. Does that mean you concede you are crazy?

[HitchcockGreen]

Well, well well... didn't this just explode everywhere while I was out.

I swear, can't leave you kids alone for a minute....

[Nielk1]

Well, I'll call your confused interpretation of the issues and raise with the final decider. . . write the IP holder and ask them if it's a mod and pirated.

That doesn't even make sense, since by definition a patch doesn't include the base game, making it entirely legal.