Interesting article thread

[Red Devil]

you get the government that you deserve

[MrTwosheds]

and you want something more from your country than a standing army cause you payed 25%?

I DON'T WANT A STANDING ARMY! The only realistic threat our nation face's is over some bloody useless rock in the south Atlantic. I would much rather have NOT paid for the "war of terror", that should have been left to the oil company "Lords" who created and sponsored it, they would think twice if they actually had to pay for it.

Well, eat your butter while it lasts......

So its illegal to be vegetarian now too?

I pay 40% in income taxes and I fear the day I turn 67 ....

No 20% is just the income tax, add all the rest and its probably close to 40% too. Most of it gets spent on paying the big wages of people who earn considerably more than I do or ever will. Meritocracy my butt, greedocracy indeed.

[Red Devil]

heh, hitler would have loved you

[MrTwosheds]

Sorry I would much rather face the threat of invasion by non-existant forces, than certain poverty and an early death in old age.
We have nukes, nobody is going to invade our island, our army has effectively become a tool of the corporate emperors, they use it , we pay for it. All I get out of it, is maybe the chance to work my arse off all my life, only to end up with nothing much to show for it. I am in the lower half of the "wealth divide" one of the majority of foolish people who wastes their life working for a wage far below the fictional "average", Unemployed people with kids bring in more than I do...I don't bitch about that because I know how much it costs and I know what choices they have. This **** can't last much longer...have we got enough Arabs for a spring yet?

[Psychedelic Rhino]

You guys actually cough up closer to 65% to "taxes" once you add up ALL the fees, licenses, permits, more taxation of products, services, etc.

And its no good forcing people to work to 67 in agriculture, because it just wont happen and doesn't pay a pension anyway.

I don't see that as an excuse. That's what the EU is begging Greece to do. . .get off their a$$e$, be creative, and figure something out! Maybe have a national work force from 55-70 to do easy administrative work with limited hours, be a greeter in a Walmart, run a toll booth, I don't know. . .but figure it out. But all we see is Greece burn off every euro they get with no improvement, then come back with their hand out.

Germany has had enough.

[MrTwosheds]

Tear it down.

[Red Devil]

i find it ironic that Greece, the 'birthplace of democracy', succumbed to the temptation of socialism. Leonidas must be rolling in his grave (or at least rolling his eyes) about now.

i find it exceedingly rewarding and entertaining to watch as the once-boastful socialist countries writhe in agony as they "run out of other people's money".

[MrTwosheds]

So you would think it better that we had the outlook of say, some of the Asian nations, with their open sewers, slums, starving children and uncontrolled breeding, that is ultimately what outright capitalism does. You Americans just don't realise how lucky you are in having stolen a whole continent from its previous responsible owners. Europe was destroyed by war, without this evil socialism, It would never have recovered.
The incompetence of the EU institutions in sensibly managing its financial situation, is another matter. It would probably have been better for Greece to never have joined, other nations considering doing so should take note.
Your politics are very 2 dimensional Red, context is important.

[Red Devil]

nah, they just need a good Constitution like ours, no 'royalty', and some good ol' morality is all.

as for socialism fixing things, wellll, tell that to Greece, Spain, and the other sinking states. Heck, you can probably include what the 'progressives'/social democrats have done to our once-prosperous nation, too.

basically, bring back the middle class that they are trying to get rid of and things will be better all the way around.

[MrTwosheds]

bring back the middle class that they are trying to get rid of and things will be better all the way around.

Hmm classism, we've suffered from that for century's.
Your once proud nation was funded by resources now squandered, that is its problem, what you seem unable to see is where its going, you are rebuilding the class system your constitution was intended to prevent, you are headed where we have been, wealth and power will become the property of dynasty's, you may as well call them royalty for they will be no different in the end.
They will oppress the lower orders and make them their property and your constitution will become a worthless historical document. Its already happening.
Balance is essential, capitalism + socialism not one or the other, either extreme will cost your nation its freedom.
Just a quick look around the mansions of the wealthy, "illegals" as servants will no doubt be found in abundance, conveniently without rights, their great grandchildren will be born into serfdom and never know another way. Freedom is a fleeting illusion unless you fight for it again and again.

[Red Devil]

no, the problem is that the destruction of the middle class results in a wealthy class and serfs, like the former soviet union and now your country and the rest of europe and increasingly ours. we still have lots of resources here, but it is cheaper to use the ones from other places, like is done with oil. why else do you think all those wells were shut down in Texas and elsewhere back in the 80's and 90's? the problem isn't resources, but too many people using them up too quickly. and corporatism, which is not capitalism.

[MrTwosheds]

We sort of agree...Bring back the middle classes = generate your own national wealth, rather than impoverishing your own people and economy by buying in "cheaper" resources and products from elsewhere. Or elites making themselves extremely wealthy by cutting their own people out of the wealth generation process. So actually it is not "cheaper" to buy in from elsewhere in the long run, as it ends up damaging your own economy to the disadvantage of all.
There are two ways round this, you allow your own domestic economy to degenerate until it can compete with foreign suppliers.
Or you persecute the wealthy (tax) until they see the error of their ways and remember what patriotism is for.
Bearing in mind that you are trying to compete with communists, fascists, and a whole bunch of people who are so poor, that you can barely comprehend the awful reality of it. Sounds to me like option 2 is the winner for a nation that wishes to maintain its integrity.

[Red Devil]

well, like the poor, we will always have the wealthy and it's the wealthy who have the capital to invest. the problem lies in the extremes that go with either: crime for the poor and avarice for the wealthy. the middle class is what tends to mitigate things and make any nation prosperous.

when the wealthy/politicians become corrupt, they see the middle class as a threat to their power base and try to take their wealth for themselves, but that is like cutting off the branch you are sitting on and you wind up with two extremes and then revolution. they know that by now, so to try to prevent that, they try to disarm the populace so they will be more malleable.

i grew up with guns since i was very young. i remember my dad showing me how to shoot a shotgun when i was about 6 or 7 - i was kneeling and it knocked me right over and my brothers and dad had a good laugh - but, it taught me respect for the power of a gun. after that, we used to walk through the neighborhood with the rifles and shotguns down to the dead end and do some target practice - and nobody in the homes raised an eyebrow. nobody ever got hurt and nobody ever threatened anyone with a gun. like i tell others, good people with good guns are never a problem. the problem is morality. when morality erodes, then you have a problem. everywhere.

the reason the right to bear arms is in our Constitution is to give us a way to defend ourselves for when things get out of balance (which they always do) and government becomes oppressive.

[Red Spot]

Germany has had enough.

Not just Germany ....
(We are cutting on healthcare/education/etc .. but we do give away money to Greece and Italy ... screw them, they pay less taxes than over here and now they need to drain our national funds? Greedy idiots is what I call them..)

[Psychedelic Rhino]

Not just Germany ....

I used Germany because of their ability to provide a larger bulk of the funds and the leadership. But yes, there are other EU countries just as fed up.

One thing I find interesting is Germany was a deadly threat to Europe twice in the last 100 years and now they are a large factor in holding it together.