Presidential Debate

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MrTwosheds
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Re: Presidential Debate

Post by MrTwosheds »

Obviously blatant piracy went completely over the head,
No it didn't, relying on laws that cannot and will not be enforced to protect your IP is a gamble producers take, either they build their protection into the product or they accept that a loss is likely to occur.
It is no different to selling fruit from a market stall in Calcutta, you either keep it manned and watch out for thieves, or your stock will disappear very quickly. Only a complete fool would even consider relying on the police and an honest population to protect them from theft. If people won't or can't protect themselves, then they need to reconsider the viability of their whole business model.
In the case of this software, by setting the price they did, they have guaranteed that 3/4 of the potential world market will never be theirs, with or without piracy. They created the market position for the pirates to fill. No surprise that they filled it then.
You want free market, that is free market, sell to everyone, compete with everyone and protect your business or fail.
Last edited by MrTwosheds on Tue Oct 23, 2012 10:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ded10c
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Re: Presidential Debate

Post by Ded10c »

Added to which... if that site owned, run and hosted in China, US law can't touch it.
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Psychedelic Rhino
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Re: Presidential Debate

Post by Psychedelic Rhino »

IP is not only code, it's hardware, a look, a texture, a configuration. It's impossible to "protect" against a slider switch, or the rounding of a corner of plastic.

The reason these pacific rim companies can get away with this, is they stay under the economic radar. The pressure would be substantially greater if their economic influence expanded. . . as we saw with Apple vs Samsung. While I certainly don't want a 'new world order', it should be made clear countries that openly ignore IP violations from companies within their borders will not be tolerating, and that they need to play by the rules.
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Ded10c
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Re: Presidential Debate

Post by Ded10c »

Their economic influence makes little difference so long as they operate in countries where they are untouchable. China is not the problem here. The problem is that patents and copyrights don't have any effect outside the country they are made in. Copyright laws of one country are only enforceable in others by goodwill (both your to us and ours to you). Canada, for example, could quite easily say "that's it, we don't care about US copyrights any more, they're no longer valid here" and that would be the end of that. Your IP is only your IP in your country.
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Nielk1
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Re: Presidential Debate

Post by Nielk1 »

US laws only apply to the United States. There are trade agreements that allow for these laws to reach outside the country, but technically, they are wrapped inside of the trade law, which is technically a law of that respective country (its like tunneling).

Copyright is a law, and it's regional. One country can choose to care about the copyrights of another, or it can choose not to. Economic pressure is the only way to change those things, and it is often abused, as are trade agreements.
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Psychedelic Rhino
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Re: Presidential Debate

Post by Psychedelic Rhino »

You guys act like it's an isolationist situation. Once warehouses, delivery centers, component suppliers in other countries, etc. are involved, you can't blow off the laws and/or agreements of another county. I'm sure Samsung would love to flip Apple off and continue on.

(hehe, well they just might. . .an ongoing rumor Samsung is cutting Apple off from their display screens. It could get nasty)
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Nielk1
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Re: Presidential Debate

Post by Nielk1 »

Psychedelic Rhino wrote:You guys act like it's an isolationist situation. Once warehouses, delivery centers, component suppliers in other countries, etc. are involved, you can't blow off the laws and/or agreements of another county. I'm sure Samsung would love to flip Apple off and continue on.

(hehe, well they just might. . .an ongoing rumor Samsung is cutting Apple off from their display screens. It could get nasty)
No, we are following the letter of the law. Its good to actually follow the cold logic of something sometimes rather then wildly fabricate.
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Re: Presidential Debate

Post by MrTwosheds »

and that they need to play by the rules.
Who's rules? rest of the world is still waiting for you to stop subsidising your agriculture and flooding markets with your excess mass production and some of us are aware of the lumber "pyramid scam" too. There are probably countless other examples of nations rigging economic industrial systems for their own benefit.
Don't moan about others cheating when you won't stop doing it yourselves.
Grow your own trees!
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Psychedelic Rhino
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Re: Presidential Debate

Post by Psychedelic Rhino »

Oh. . sorry for providing the world with surplus food on a grand scale. Our bad.

As to deforestation, look elsewhere to complain. But yes, we're rich, so we can buy wood. I'm sure you would as well if you could dig yourself out of that insane debt hole.

As to moaning, I guess you missed the comment above where I reap the benefits of dirt cheap Chinese labor. I would think ALL of the western countries would be just as concerned as the US. Opps never mind, they are.

I'm still a little taken aback that all you saw was a price point you didn't like. Remind me not to try and sell you some nice Brazilian Rosewood furniture I have in the attic. :lol:
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MrTwosheds
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Re: Presidential Debate

Post by MrTwosheds »

Oh. . sorry for providing the world with surplus food on a grand scale. Our bad.
Yes, how the hell are poor nations supposed to support themselves when you constantly undercut their free markets.
As to deforestation, look elsewhere to complain.
A hell of a lot of that wood ends up in US lumber mills. It takes hundreds of years to produce, you buy it for a few dollars a tree, there is no reinvestment into lumber production there or on your huge once well forested continent. It is a calculated unsustainable use of a sustainable resource in order to generate profit for industrialised nations at the cost to the entire ecosystem. It is just another way of stealing from the future, If the most powerful and capable nations will not take responsibility and invest in their own sustainable resources, then competition and "free markets" cannot ever be established. The end result of this planetary rape strategy is a global collapse of industrial development. Ultimately it is a fraud of such a monumental nature that most people can't even begin to comprehend it. Why should anyone give a hoot about pirating some CD's while the whole basic infrastructure underpinning industrial development is being systematically destroyed in order to temporarily maintain the economic advantage of a wealthy minority?

You tell me to look elsewhere, and I tell you to take a much closer look at your own government and the corporations who support it. It is their greed, ignorance, corruption and a failure to invest in YOUR OWN nations resource production that is causing deforestation in less industrialised nations. You are not the only nation guilty of this, just the most powerful and capable of leading the change before it really is too late to fix and the world economy is doomed to a materials bankruptcy that will take hundreds of years to recover from, assuming we survive the environmental disaster that accompanies it.

Vote Republican. Mitt's going to let the loggers log in America once more. You need this because you have forgotten what its like to have your environments destroyed by people who are just too greedy to Grow Their Own Trees.
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Red Spot
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Re: Presidential Debate

Post by Red Spot »

Psychedelic Rhino wrote:IP is not only code, it's hardware, a look, a texture, a configuration. It's impossible to "protect" against a slider switch, or the rounding of a corner of plastic.

The reason these pacific rim companies can get away with this, is they stay under the economic radar. The pressure would be substantially greater if their economic influence expanded. . . as we saw with Apple vs Samsung. While I certainly don't want a 'new world order', it should be made clear countries that openly ignore IP violations from companies within their borders will not be tolerating, and that they need to play by the rules.
Not disagreeing with you, however:
-Who made those rules
-Who likes other to stick to the rules
-Who enforces the rules
-Who has the most advantage if others stick to the rules
??
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MrTwosheds
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Re: Presidential Debate

Post by MrTwosheds »

And many years of effort by governments all round the world went into an attempt to construct a framework for International Law, only to be casually binned by some guy looking out for his chums who clearly did have good reasons to fear it...So all the honest hard working folk lost out.
I suspect it will now be very difficult to attempt such a process again, as nobody will have any confidence in it ever succeeding.
You can only have cake until you eat it.
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Ded10c
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Re: Presidential Debate

Post by Ded10c »

Psychedelic Rhino wrote:But yes, we're rich, so we can buy wood. I'm sure you would as well if you could dig yourself out of that insane debt hole.
That's funny, ours doesn't come anywhere near trillions of dollars.
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Psychedelic Rhino
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Re: Presidential Debate

Post by Psychedelic Rhino »

AHadley wrote:That's funny, ours doesn't come anywhere near trillions of dollars.
Today let's learn a new preposition phrase. It's called 'per capita'.

And btw, it's not funny. . . for either country.
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Re: Presidential Debate

Post by Ded10c »

I know perfectly well what per capita means. You also know exactly what I meant; you've not really got any high ground when it comes to national debt.
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