Bionite: Origins needs Support!

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LtFEED
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Re: Bionite: Origins needs Support!

Post by LtFEED »

hmmmm.....

I hadnt considerd what vehs should be available from the very beginning, other than the razor (BZ equiv to the scout). Any ideas or suggestions as to what the starting vehs should be? The turrets are good, but maybe there are other vehs we should consider to include in the Rec's vehs that it can build from the start?
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Re: Bionite: Origins needs Support!

Post by General BlackDragon »

Resource collector, scout, turret, constructor, repair/supply pods,(or have a pad that can repair) at minimum.
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Re: Bionite: Origins needs Support!

Post by MrTwosheds »

The starting state is fairly critical in strat as the most powerful units, the players, are usually present...
It might be a good idea to take neither bz1 or bz2 as good examples, Bz2 certainly has issues with games becoming nonviable right from the start.
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Re: Bionite: Origins needs Support!

Post by Nielk1 »

It *could* be balanced that a turret is not a starting tech unit, however BZers will probably be annoyed.
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Re: Bionite: Origins needs Support!

Post by MrTwosheds »

Probably not, some sort of defense is fairly critical in getting to a state where a good battle can occur.
What I am trying to say is that Bionite is a new game in a different engine, what is true in bz1 or 2 is not necessarily true for Bionite. The devs will have to work it out in it's own context.
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Red Spot
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Re: Bionite: Origins needs Support!

Post by Red Spot »

BZ2 does not give a turret until you are a few missions into the game. Ok in MP/IA modes it seems available from start, but even there it has a limitation, the requirement to deploy the recy.
Imo, having some minor delay in getting your 'tier 1 support units' can work very well, depending on how it is implemented.
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Re: Bionite: Origins needs Support!

Post by Nielk1 »

Games like StarCraft have different tech trees in MP than the campaign.
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Re: Bionite: Origins needs Support!

Post by LtFEED »

very good input you guys. I have refered the design team to your guys reccs on this. :)

My biggest issue with the starting units was preventing base rushing. Base rushing was probably the most frustrating issues that I faced when playing BZ. My idea was to have the essential units available to the pilot to prevent base rushing. I was thinking of maybe having a gun tower or two available for the very start, to deter others from base rushing. Also, the game can be a little slow at the start becuase of the lack of resources available. Maybe having a 'reserve' of scrap available from the start so the pilots can have the ability to build units?

ALso it has been floated by the design team to have scrap pools that had only limited amounts of scrap. I personlly disagree with that because the game would not be able to contiune without the availabilty of scrap for building. Maybe a good idea would be to limit the number of scavengers instead? Ideas?
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Re: Bionite: Origins needs Support!

Post by MrTwosheds »

The issue is of how extreme competition evolves game play down to the quickest way to win. Somehow you need to get to a state where early game base rushing is a very risky strategy to adopt. In bz2 "starting turrets" where introduced as a defense... but of course they were then also used as base assault units, even after they were slowed to a crawling pace.
Some players just like games like this. They can maximize their win "rush" with multiple 4 minute games. Others think this is just a waste of their gaming time.
I recall with some annoyance a game I had with one such "rapist" It was a hard battle fighting him off at the start, we both built full bases...and then he quit claiming stalemate! I figured that he simply had never learned the full game strategies needed to win from that position and was just not prepared to invest time in what might well have become a lose situation for him.
So you need to consider both types of player really, personally I would think that a weapon/armor/resource starting balance that made rushing almost a non viable approach would be good start, but then I have always preferred a good battle over the simple win rush.

Of course being a new game you could take an entirely different approach, I'm thinking here of how in some games your character cannot reliably point his sniper rifle at his own feet at the start, but by the final level he can shoot the flies off of your hat from 500 meters. :) It all depends on just how faithful to bz you want to be.
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Re: Bionite: Origins needs Support!

Post by blue banana »

As far as scrap goes, take a look at BZ1- there is definitely not infinite scrap. Players rather "exchange" scrap between their battles, with their armies destroyed. On the contrary, BZ2 doesn't need this because scrap is already infinite. My opinion would be to have infinite scrap, but comparatively less "necessary" than BZ2 pools. In other words, it would maintain the infinity of the game, but it isn't the most reliable source of scrap, whether its profit is slowed or any other means.
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Re: Bionite: Origins needs Support!

Post by General BlackDragon »

I vote you have scrap rain from the sky in meteor showers :D
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Re: Bionite: Origins needs Support!

Post by Red Spot »

blue banana wrote:As far as scrap goes, take a look at BZ1- there is definitely not infinite scrap. Players rather "exchange" scrap between their battles, with their armies destroyed. On the contrary, BZ2 doesn't need this because scrap is already infinite. My opinion would be to have infinite scrap, but comparatively less "necessary" than BZ2 pools. In other words, it would maintain the infinity of the game, but it isn't the most reliable source of scrap, whether its profit is slowed or any other means.
That^
The way I did it in my custom work is use random scrap spawning on predetermined places on the map (to prevent scrap on top of slopes, in water, etc), having it as an infinite source but none can really control it and you have to go out of your comfort zone in order to find it.
Use of meteors, as suggested by GBD, would be a nice way to make it happen, as well as provide some visual indication a new pool has opened .. I may need to work on that 8-)
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Re: Bionite: Origins needs Support!

Post by MrTwosheds »

Possibly even have pools that provide a reliable scrap input, but once upgraded the enhanced resource supply will tail off after some time too less than the non upgraded, that would make upgrading a strategic decision with consequences.
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Re: Bionite: Origins needs Support!

Post by Psyringe »

It would be interesting if Bionite: Origins became an open source "free development" - reaching out to many 3rd party group development tools with very little "hierarchy" than what the community chooses as they learn about the project. This is considering the evolution of the market over the last year. Many games following the MMO-STRAT and MOBA-STRAT surfacing to the market leaves a lot to be wanted in a development like this.

When launched from BZ3 Genesis - this idea/project at it's core was community based.

An entirely revised production plan couldn't hurt. A public announcement on the utilization of this games resources over the next year - on the "bright side".

In my opinion, considering the circumstances, the game will hit it's highest success rate with the potential of a sequel. There's numerous people in the community touched by this product that may actually take a deeper look into it's revival if it became open source.
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Re: Bionite: Origins needs Support!

Post by Red Spot »

MrTwosheds wrote:Possibly even have pools that provide a reliable scrap input, but once upgraded the enhanced resource supply will tail off after some time too less than the non upgraded, that would make upgrading a strategic decision with consequences.
That might be pretty cool for a specific race. Like Sword of the Stars has a race that strips planets of any resource and they 'need' to stay on the offensive or simply lose steam and eventually lose the arms race and go extinct.
I.ow. a race that 'needs' to win fairly early on since it cant keep up late game (call it a reversed scion ...).
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