Openning a can of worms ISDF V SCION fair? vote on it

[Nielk1]

The fact that build canceling the unit gives you as much scrap as it does is pretty clearly an error on the part of whomever edited the ODF. HOWEVER, with the apparent balance implications, for this to be fixed, something else probably has to be adjusted.

I have to ask, are we talking about small maps are huge maps?
Scions have the advantage the longer they wait till the direct combat begins, thus they are better at large maps. (I say this IGNORING build canceling, and in fact, when I play scion I do not do it.)

So, is the issue that the Scions can only compete on small to medium maps with 'build canceling' or that they can only compete ever with 'build canceling'?

You see, unlike nosing down to get more forward thrust, shooting a bomb out of the air, and fast weapon switching, 'build canceling' is counter-intuitive. In general, after realizing one can strafe and move forward at the same time, they will inevitably try to add in a third vector from jump. In general, after seeing a very large slow moving projectile, one would try to shoot it, especially after realizing it moves just like a powerup and is on radar just like one. In general, after playing many other games, people would know that shooting 1 gun while another stronger one 'recharges' is a good tactic, and would try to get better at that to the point of checking game settings like one would check for mouse sensitivity for something to make it easier (in this case a Previous Weapon bind) (they might enable 'fast weapon switching' in a Source Engine game for example).

But now lets look at 'build canceling'. If I commit to making something, then I cancel it, do I get back everything I put in? Perhaps, worth a test, and most likely the first test being done on an ISDF Scav, the answer is no you don't, and even more so this holds true for every single unit you might try, except this one. That seems quite the example of counter-intuitive. All the other mechanics make sense. One could easily explain them. But for something that works for nothing else, suddenly, one finds that 'build canceling' an Empty Scion Scout preserves a higher % of scrap than anything else to the point of using it to keep the generation in the red (or yellow), that sounds and feels a lot like an exploit, and thus it should be fixed, and thus if balance is damaged in doing so balance needs to be fixed.

[Zero Angel]

You are correct that build canceling is counter intuitive, and it must be taught by someone who already knows it -- making it an odd ability. However I am on the train with the idea that ISDF has the potential to push the Scions back into base with fast chain/shads/lase with M-Curtain, and give them little chance to fight their way outwards given equal teams (and in situations where the Scion team is weaker at dogfighting, at all, they will have little chance to recover).

I believe, NK1 that DF emphasises that balance fixing must be tested *extensively*. And preferably so by top tier players who have a thorough knowledge of game dynamics (not simply a book knowledge, but one forged in the crucible of combat) and can better adapt to good balance changes, in additon to exploiting the bad ones (thereby making them obvious).

[Nielk1]

One advantage about balance changes and the 1.3 patch is they can be tested in the public beta and then dropped into the private and checked that they are still stable.

Maybe someone should try to come up with a fix for the balance that also repairs this exploit and test it?

[DarkFox]

Nk1: The size of the map isnt' so important, this tends to be the model of the game regardless of the size of map being played.
However, the presence or absence of a base pool *does* massively effect the strategy of the game.
Al my posts in this thread have been based on the assumption that a pool is in the base area of the player. I'm talking close enough for the recycler to be placed adjecent to the pool if the commander so desired.

Without a base pool, scions get destroyed even when they *do* use build cancelling. However, if by some miracle the scion team manages to tech up to blink, there really is nothing ISDF can do to win if they don't have a base pool. In short, I feel the base pool is integral to the current (great) racial balance of the game, and while I enjoy a game on high heat as much as the next guy, I don't feel that ISDF vs scion is balanced particularly well on those maps.

Re: Counter intuitive... I don't completely agree. I'm with you on the nose-down and the bomb, but the previousweapon key... Nope, I don't agree. I don't think it's any more obvious for a player to go through his control settings to rebind previousweapon for faster weapon switching. In fact, I think that's *more* wierd than cancelling an empty scout.
I also disagree with "build canceling is counter intuitive, and it must be taught by someone who already knows it ". That's not true at all. Plenty of players figured it out independantly, myself included.
(Now the scrap cheating, which involved ordering a building while swinging the mouse cursor out of the 'green zone', and timing the press of your spacebar, so that the constructor would reach the building site but be unable to build, and refund you full scrap... THAT was one that I didn't figure out on my own. i had to read a vague hint from the fly forums to realise what was going on. )

Also, I'd argue that just because something is a bit 'backwards', that's not necessarily a reason to remove it. The 'combo' in streetfighter was originally a bug/design omission, and it became the most fundamentally important, fun, and defining aspect of the entire 1v1 fighting game genre. Likewise, sometimes things that absolutely *should* work, such as 1.2's M-curtain mortar tricks, actually broke the entire of the strat game (and after discovering it I advocated it's complete removal in 1.3, realising that a player that knew it could dominate games with that trick alone).

Be careful about trying to change something just because it doesn't feel right. If empty recycling were to be removed (which is fine and good etc), then as neil and ZA have acknowledged, massive rebalancing needs to be done to fix the races. I personally feel it would be a shame to disturb such an awesome racial balance in a strategy game just to clean up a point that is actually a difficult commanding skill to perform in a busy game (it's so easy to deny your own thugs a pod because you're cancelling empties at the wrong moment, never mind missing a cancel and losing a drone). Still, if it *was* to be disturbed, I'd encourage it be modified as a recycler variant, at least until we reach a point where the community as a whole agrees that balance is restored.

[APCs r Evil]

at least until we reach a point where the community as a whole agrees that balance is restored.

And that's the difficult part. Just look how fragmented the views on interracial balance are now, imagine how much of a mess it'd be if we started completely reworking the game.

I still meet the occasional ISDF player who thinks Scions shouldn't be used, ever.

[MrTwosheds]

Darkfox I am well aware of the limitations of the Sentry and Lancer, it is something I would like to see fixed in strat they should be a major part of any rebalancing.
I accept much of what you say about the current setup of the game. But it is clear to me that to claim empty cancelling is a balance fix is just so horribly wrong, It gives a huge advantage to those least in need of it, the topguns of this game. While it might currently be balancing the races in the top level games, it is also destroying the growth of the community, as lesser mortals will not even begin to learn how to lose well if they think there is something amiss, lots of them do think this and they are right.
You say it will destroy the game, but this game will be destroyed by only one thing, a lack of new players.

Back when I first started playing online, quite a long time ago now, with my 56k modem. I was regularly annihilated by a player know as Saxon (own up if your still here!) One of his most notable skills was his incredible control of scavs, every time you shot his pools there would be another waiting right there to pick up the loose and take its place, the loose scrap was nearly always his because he got there first. I don't see anyone play like that now, they don't need to. Game play has been a constant evolution in bz2, removing one little scrap cheat will not destroy it any more than taking out flying did, some fanatics may stamp and shout allot and refuse the newer patches until they find they have nobody left to fight! but that's up to them. Balance is about units and guns and how they are used by players, It is certainly not about who can generate the most scrap from a bug!
You seem to think I don't know what I am talking about, but I have had my arse kicked for years by the best players in this game I have lived and breathed BZ2 as much as any of us but I am not and never will be a Topflight player.
Knowing that I am being beaten by an exceptional "skill" at pressing 181space at the right time really SUCKS very very BADLY! I hope you understand this.

[Zero Angel]

Back when I first started playing online, quite a long time ago now, with my 56k modem. I was regularly annihilated by a player know as Saxon (own up if your still here!) One of his most notable skills was his incredible control of scavs, every time you shot his pools there would be another waiting right there to pick up the loose and take its place, the loose scrap was nearly always his because he got there first. I don't see anyone play like that now, they don't need to. .

This is grossly incorrect. MAX is an excellent commander, for example, and even when he is scrap boosting with the scions, he *always* makes certain to have scavengers on the field when and where they are needed. And every commander worth his salt has scavengers out collecting in the race to get resources while denying the enemy his own.

While it is certainly frustrating playing against these types of players, and getting denied over and over again (losing your ship) and constantly being put on the back foot. Know that players such as himself are not only good at dogfighting -- but at commanding as well.

Being able to dog fight is one of the most important components of human vs human strat, as well as knowing all of the little tactics. In spite of BZ2's FPRTS moniker, strat is a *very* tactical game mode that requires good coordination of your ship, but being able to use various little tactics such as weapon switching and remaining coordinated with your team. Unless you practice this frequently, ambitiously, and persistently -- you will have a difficult time getting over a skill plateau and becoming a good player. 'One year' vets such as MAX and Cyber did this and anyone else can.

[DarkFox]

I accept much of what you say about the current setup of the game.But it is clear to me that to claim empty cancelling is a balance fix is just so horribly wrong, It gives a huge advantage to those least in need of it.

You contradicted yourself without even ending a sentence. You clearly don't understand what I'm trying to say. Empty cancelling gives an advantage to the LOSING player. It's of no use whatsoever to a player that has taken the entire map, it's of use to the player that is sitting on 1/2 pools losing the game.
As such, it gives a huge advantage to those most in need of it, the losing team.

Oh, and I do acknowledge and respect your experience in the zone, that's why I said I did earlier. I just feel your views of strat gameplay and balance are a little off. You = cool. I like you. We just disagree here. <3

at least until we reach a point where the community as a whole agrees that balance is restored.

And that's the difficult part. Just look how fragmented the views on interracial balance are now, imagine how much of a mess it'd be if we started completely reworking the game.

I still meet the occasional ISDF player who thinks Scions shouldn't be used, ever.

That's a lot of the problem, but there's also the fact that there's nothing wrong with the game as it is now, and nothing in need of changing. Empty recycling gives a 'handicap' boost to the losing team. If people would just embrace it as the awesome balance device it is, as well as inviting it as a little help to a new player picking scions, they'd realise it's just fine.

[Nielk1]

Something interesting I have found:

When you play casually, without care of win or loss and without investment in either, and the other team does the same, they actually are balanced. But when both teams are being as competitive as possible trying to get every advantage and win, the Scions seems to fall behind.

Note: Casual playing is *not* playing with weird ass rules such as no base attacks for first X min or whatever other random things. Casual playing is simply not being invested in the win tot he point that you follow a ubiquitous 'proven' strategy and you instead play for the fun of the experience and try to do it in new and interesting ways.

[MrTwosheds]

It's of no use whatsoever to a player that has taken the entire map,

No? I could have sworn it could be used to seriously accelerate base and unit building times.

[Clavin12]

Something interesting I have found:

When you play casually, without care of win or loss and without investment in either, and the other team does the same, they actually are balanced. But when both teams are being as competitive as possible trying to get every advantage and win, the Scions seems to fall behind.

Note: Casual playing is *not* playing with weird ass rules such as no base attacks for first X min or whatever other random things. Casual playing is simply not being invested in the win tot he point that you follow a ubiquitous 'proven' strategy and you instead play for the fun of the experience and try to do it in new and interesting ways.

this

EDIT: lol, first time I've used that. Did it sound okay?

[MrTwosheds]

No.

[Zax]

Go play bz1 if you want that.

[SUB-0]

Hey guys i am reading all the posts and its giving myself and probably alot of others an idea ...the votes should demostrate the majority of the player's opinions...and of cours it is very dynamic ...
and i expected it would be ...i learned alot and many came up with very good points ....and being i have played alot of BZ myself ...i could agree with most of the posts.

Very educational regards SUB-0

[Sly]

When I play with scions I just get two pools and tell thugs to stay in base. Effective usage of the empty bug allows for quill blink warriors in 12 minutes. Two level 3 starting guardians with 4 full scouts defending counters the need to build gun spires. Good arguments here. Plenty of people with experience and even more without any (probably why the YES vote is so high).