Strategy Rules and Regulations

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forgottengames
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Strategy Rules and Regulations

Post by forgottengames » Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:22 am

Recently I've noticed that many strat games could possibly be bettered if we could somehow implement all, most, or some of these rules and regs in select games...

1. Each team gets an allocated number of scrap pools that cannot be upgraded. I think this would best assist new commanders as it would teach them how to manage resources before being forced to keep an eye on them.

2. Units cannot have more than a specific number of service trucks/healers assigned to follow them. I recently lost a match after a nemesis sent out a single walker backed by at least twelve service trucks. Is this really acceptable? Should players plan for such events beforehand?

3. Teams cannot "stockpile" certain units. I understand that some recycler variants do not allow players to do so with certain units, but I honestly have found it irksome to take on twenty ISDF assault tanks with only three Maulers and 1 healer. However, this may be attested to BZ2's "get yours first" nature of strategy multiplayer, where inexperienced commanders will almost always be disadvantaged.

4. Loose scrap can be enabled or disabled before the game begins. This would level the playing field.

5. Overpowered weapons specific to the factions (i. e. MAG and the Fang Cannon) can either be disabled or have their damage output reduced.

I'm not a new player or a whiner, but I thought that the newer fanbase of BZ2 might benefit from these rules.

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MrTwosheds
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Re: Strategy Rules and Regulations

Post by MrTwosheds » Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:31 pm

Its called strategy for a reason, we do have rules, but you have not listed any of them, the average strat players answers to your points would be 1.no 2.no 3.no 4.no 5.no or possibly why? why? why? why? why?
There is quite a high level of learned skill in playing a bz2 strat, it is hard for new players, you will be defeated many times as you learn, this is ok because the one of the most important things to learn is how to lose well.
Choose your opponents carefully, there are people playing that you will not beat, others who will be more willing to make a game of it, and a few you just won't want to play against anyway.
You will be welcome to join the games I host (infrequently) I usually try to make a game of it, this is usually why I lose.

AcneVulgaris
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Re: Strategy Rules and Regulations

Post by AcneVulgaris » Sun Dec 18, 2011 6:00 pm

The rules are built into and automatically enforced by the game.

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Zero Angel
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Re: Strategy Rules and Regulations

Post by Zero Angel » Sun Dec 18, 2011 6:22 pm

The rules listed in the OP are typically called 'noob rules'. And it's fine if players new to strat want to start off at a more relaxed pace.

Strats played by veteran players often have very few rules, but among them are

1) No turrets inside of buildings (ie: recycler silos)
2) No attacking buildings from unhittable positions (ie: on top of factory/bomber bay, inside of factory (pilot entrance), inside of antenna/overseer, etc)
3) Do not kill empty or AI ships that an enemy pilot is about to get into.
4) Do not rejoin for ships/sniper rifle. If you were out of ship when you left/lagged out you are required to blow your ship upon re-entering a game.

Over/underpowered weapons and units would need to be balanced via a recycler variant. It is typically up to the player-community to make these variants and you can do it even without having programming or modeling knowledge.

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Dataanti
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Re: Strategy Rules and Regulations

Post by Dataanti » Mon Dec 19, 2011 4:28 pm

MrTwosheds wrote:it is hard for new players,
That's a lie, I have been playing this game since its release and I still can play strat :P.

Broadside
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Re: Strategy Rules and Regulations

Post by Broadside » Tue Dec 20, 2011 3:08 am

I hate to break it to you OP, but your rules and regulations are not going to happen. Here is why (and please dont take offense to this, you just need to start thinking more about strategy):

1. its called a recycler. Free scrap pools would take the risk/reward out of trying to capture pools on the field. No risk/reward=Boring gameplay

2. why limit that? Especially if you have mortar. 12+ healers on one walker means 12 easy kills for you. Also, they are in your base, which means you will get the loose, which means you have the huge advantage. Always kill the medic before the tank. Assault walkers tend to only look forward, which makes it hard for them to protect the healers from a flank. Use strategy.

3. If you let the enemy stockpile units you should either A) have your own stockpile, or B) have your own stockpile. There is no reason that they would have any more of an ability to build units as you, so change whatever you are doing to allow this. Or, dont let them stockpile in the first place and this wont be an issue.

4. Loose is an integral part of the game. Build lots of scavs (set them to 1 or 2 groups then do order 3 and they will search for loose). Playingfield even-ed.

5. MAG is underused IMO, so nerfing it would make it next to useless. Fang is short ranged. Kill it from long range. If you let Maulers get to your recycler, then you lost a fair game. If you lost your recycler to an enemy commander who had a MAG cannon, then you need to place a rattler behind and in front of your recycler.

Basically, you need to learn from your mistakes and apply fixes. This game is about strategy, not making endless games no matter what the skill levels of the opposing commanders are. If you took my words harshly, I apologize. I was in the same position as you when I started playing and learned by losing. I still am not very good, but I know that when I lose, it was because I did something wrong and I apply a fix next time. Good luck and you can PM me if you would like to set up some time for us to 1v1 and I can give you some pointers. There are plenty of players that you can ask for help and they will help you out, most of which are better than I.

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Nielk1
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Re: Strategy Rules and Regulations

Post by Nielk1 » Wed Dec 21, 2011 11:31 pm

Zero Angel wrote:3) Do not kill empty or AI ships that an enemy pilot is about to get into.
To me, this rule has always sounded like a noob rule or a rule of chivalry rather than a rule of competition. In any conflict, to defeat your enemy, disarming them can be very useful.

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Re: Strategy Rules and Regulations

Post by APCs r Evil » Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:20 am

I've never really liked that rule either.

I first ran into it in a 1.2 FE game, I was piloting a Walker in a serviced assault and was quite happily Blasting my way through the occasional Empty on the enemy's Rec pad. All of a sudden one of the enemy team guys starts shouting in all chat not to kill the empties, that baffled me but then the host agreed with him so I stopped killing the Empties. I dunno what difference it made, 3 seconds after the Empties were built they started flying toward the assault, Minigun blazing, and got promptly destroyed before doing any damage.

If I remember correctly (Unlikely) that same guy started shouting again about my killing his Empty, while it was shooting at my Walker and trucks. Apparently I was supposed to ignore him since he was in an Empty Scout and let him take apart the whole assault. Regardless, within a few seconds of that new shoutfest I destroyed the enemy Rec, game over.

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Zero Angel
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Re: Strategy Rules and Regulations

Post by Zero Angel » Thu Dec 22, 2011 7:31 am

Nielk1 wrote:
Zero Angel wrote:3) Do not kill empty or AI ships that an enemy pilot is about to get into.
To me, this rule has always sounded like a noob rule or a rule of chivalry rather than a rule of competition. In any conflict, to defeat your enemy, disarming them can be very useful.
Well, consider it simply an overpowered tactic. It's incredibly easy for an attacking team to just camp empties that are being built, to the point where it no longer becomes competition since the enemy team can't fight back.

Imagine the enemy team wins the first dogfight, none of you are in ships, and all they have to do is keep killing pilots and empties. Well the game isnt gonna last long, or be competitive since there's nothing your team, as pilots, can do to stop the enemy team from pilot killing and then killing the empties.

It's very much the same thing as off-map archers. Just because the game engine allows you to do something, you should always be able to counter it some how. Strat players, even given the 'cut throat' nature of high level strat, respect a few basic tenets of competition. If enough people agree to a certain set of ground rules, then it's possible for them to have good quality games without having to rely on modders or devs to set 'hard limits' on what you can do. It's often a certain breed of 'vets' who want to win at all costs and do not respect rules of chivalry that allow for the highest quality games, hence why you see guys like MAX and Cyber always trying to stack teams, sit on top of the factory, etc. A lot of veteran players used to do that in the past, but after so much time has passed, they realize that there are some things which must be done in order to ensure that everyone is able to have fun.

That said, noobs make some rules that make things easier for them (ie: no scav attacks) but void the spirit of competition since fighting for resources is part of what strat is about (at least once you get bored of building 10 walkers and throwing it at the enemy's 20 SP sabres, realizing how *boring* the game becomes at this point).

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MrTwosheds
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Re: Strategy Rules and Regulations

Post by MrTwosheds » Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:55 am

It is indeed a rule of chivalry. it is not always followed but its best if it is, I have had too many games with the win at all cost types, standing as a pilot watching everything you try to build get destroyed before it has even got off the recy. In 1.2 I would offer that this strategy was nicely balanced by %s as a response... :evil:
Sometimes I think the recy should be able to recycle enemy units the same way it can your own.

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Nielk1
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Re: Strategy Rules and Regulations

Post by Nielk1 » Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:51 am

I consider no spawn/empty camping sort of separate from the rule I took notice of. I mean, I don't quite see why doing it once and a while while passing through on a quick raid is a bad thing. Camping though is just mean.

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Red Spot
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Re: Strategy Rules and Regulations

Post by Red Spot » Thu Dec 22, 2011 2:20 pm

If full ships can be build I dont mind shooting empty empties. That being said, any pilot on the recy-pad, while not shooting or crouching, is safe from me.
Also when you have won the game and the enemy is trying to get empties out, I am not too bothered with them being shot, but I would not target them on purpose.
I also feel that empty-stealing is something you do not do, snipe the basterds in a ship if you want a free ship.

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Re: Strategy Rules and Regulations

Post by MrTwosheds » Thu Dec 22, 2011 2:48 pm

Current 1.3 convention, is to have starting rats on, but empty stealing is considered the thing to do, If a commander does not use their rats to defend their recy they deserve to lose a few empties, personally I try to build as few empties as possible, as fulls are far more effective in battle and constant empty production slows down base building without any guarantee of a positive result.

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Red Spot
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Re: Strategy Rules and Regulations

Post by Red Spot » Thu Dec 22, 2011 2:53 pm

How I stand towards the stealing also depends on who does it.
If the winning team losses a ship and than quickly steals an empty, or after the opening DF steals an empty while the other team got whiped out » I do not agree with it.
If you're losing and your team cant really build the ships cause they're being shot to pieces and you can find an undefended empty in a full base » go for it.

It basicly comes back to that chivalry bit, where the underdog can get away with a bit less of it.

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Re: Strategy Rules and Regulations

Post by AcneVulgaris » Thu Dec 22, 2011 5:11 pm

Stealing sniping ai and stealing empties is FUN. There's a great deal of tension in the stealth involved, or the precision of hopping out of your old ship into the new one, a great deal of bliss in pulling it off, and a great deal of frustration in having it done to you. It is this kind of stuff that makes BZ2 one of the rare games that can make me feel emotions, or give a crap about imaginary possessions.

It's a war simulation, not a disneyland simulation.

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