Battlezone Forums

RD. If everyone who played pvp in a first person shooter complained about the removal of being able to see through walls, then it should be considered whether or not that it was a good change to remove that thing. Maybe in a situation like that wall hacking has become part of the game and in fact the game was never meant to be a game where walls were hidden from the players, because giving everyone the ability to see through walls added a unique spin on that game and contributed to some of that game's charm that kept people wanting to play the game.

The work I do is partially involved in attempting to fix or work around problems (even exploits like the blink exploit) that my target audience deems detrimental to the gameplay experience, and when I say target audience, i'm talking about the ones who have a genuine passion and love for BZ2 (not BZ2 as an idea, but BZ2 as something they spend hundreds or even thousands of hours a year playing) They still stick around whereas the ones who cried for the removal of a certain feature are no longer active even though they got what they wanted.

The long list of changes in VSR is proof that change is accepted. But only to the point where it doesnt nullify skills and knowledge that people have spent years honing. That's why any change to any large, permanent change to metagame aspect isnt accepted except as an option. Do it to any game with an established community and you will see a big outcry. There will always be growing pains. I initially hated the increased turret/GT accuracy in FE for example, but grew to love the mod and accept the changes as 'for the better'. I would think after a few years, one would be able to tell you whether it was a good or bad thing, if after even that amount of time people say that it was for the worse, then they might be right.

seeing that your 'target audience' has a hefty dose of of griefers, i'll take that with a hefty grain of salt.

anyways, back on topic.

Red Devil wrote:seeing that your 'target audience' has a hefty dose of of griefers, i'll take that with a hefty grain of salt.

anyways, back on topic.

Context is everything, attacking the target audience is not.

Red Devil wrote: apollo, how/why do you have access to the code?

Dx/Apollo has had access to the BZ 1.3 source code for years. It's what BZE is based on.

Zero Angel wrote:The long list of changes in VSR is proof that change is accepted. But only to the point where it doesnt nullify skills and knowledge that people have spent years honing. That's why any change to any large, permanent change to metagame aspect isnt accepted except as an option. Do it to any game with an established community and you will see a big outcry. There will always be growing pains. I initially hated the increased turret/GT accuracy in FE for example, but grew to love the mod and accept the changes as 'for the better'. I would think after a few years, one would be able to tell you whether it was a good or bad thing, if after even that amount of time people say that it was for the worse, then they might be right.

Those changes consist of either A: regressions, or B: things that they notice make them perform better. I am reminded of bugs that only get reported when more than just 1 person can take advantage of them.

Nielk1: If you are referring to VSR consisting of regressions, then please see here. Scroll down to 'Global Changes' and read everything downwards.

General BlackDragon wrote:

Red Devil wrote: apollo, how/why do you have access to the code?

Dx/Apollo has had access to the BZ 1.3 source code for years. It's what BZE is based on.

Infact there are two versions of the Bz engine, the first came from Ken and was incomplete (working copy between 1.1 - 1.3 about 9 files missing, no network updates and renderer issues), the second i was given from another source while asking for files to use for the first version to complete and make updates for it to bring it closer to Bz1.4 patch. This was to make it worth working on for both Ken and I as we didn't think an older version was worth the work. ken sparked my interest in making fixes after i had a taste from the first version. Why/how the first version came about... i was asking Ken for detailed info on the aip functions, the engine was quite an unexpected surprize in my email, i didn't know what badlands.7z was...

Zero Angel wrote:Nielk1: If you are referring to VSR consisting of regressions, then please see here. Scroll down to 'Global Changes' and read everything downwards.

Yep, lots of regressions, or at least, attempted regressions (The physics switches only do so much). The rest was just stuff you added after. Its a wonder they haven't ripped the mod apart yet because of how much it changed, but I guess when the changes make you feel like you are better, it's fine. Though they only care about balance in the one fixed way they play, so it is a good thing no one playing that thinks outside the box or the balance would fall apart.

apollo, thought you were talking about bz2 source, not bz1

Nielk1: Once again, incorrect. The balance changes came long before the physics changes, they and features like 3 second pods, fixes to the modded empty/unmodded full costs, etc were among the first things implemented. In fact let me introduce you to the timeline for VSR:

1.x series - Necessary and most critical fixes (e.g. 3 second pods, 40 scrap unmodded fulls, 30 scrap modded empties, etc), minor balance changes
2.x series - Balance changes (e.g. buffing of some underbalanced weapons such as pulse stab, plasma, prox mines, etc)
3.x series - Physics, FX, and experimental balance tweaks (a lot of regressions and a lot of reversions)
4.x series - 2 new races added (Hadeans, Ice Cream), balance refinement (also 3 variants, with different levels of 'experimentability'), fixes and DLL, AIPs for MPI modes

So yeah, physics came in for the version 3 release, long after people started playing VSR and the point when it became a 'must have' mod for regular strat players. The only reason why you get the impression of self-superiority from me is because i've spent loads of my thought/development time on the meta-game, i've made tons of mistakes, endured a lot of crap and frustration, and I think i've formed a rather evolved picture of why things are the way they are -- because i've been in the 'trenches' from both the perspective of a strat-a-holic (both an ace and an easy target) AND a dev and I like to believe I can understand the most of the frustrations and misunderstandings of both sides. A lot of things you think are regressions are actually not due to a very complex and often unforseen cause-effect relationships that have to be experienced to be really understood.

Actually VSR is a damn good evolution, a lot more effort has been put into actual game play mechanics than any other mod I have played (or indeed the original game ). Anyone making a mod should take a good look at the fine detail of what was done here and learn from it. My only regret is that it moved away from its original concept as a recycler variant that would become included in the game patches along with the other additional variants.

MrTwosheds wrote:Actually VSR is a damn good evolution, a lot more effort has been put into actual game play mechanics than any other mod I have played (or indeed the original game ). Anyone making a mod should take a good look at the fine detail of what was done here and learn from it. My only regret is that it moved away from its original concept as a recycler variant that would become included in the game patches along with the other additional variants.

Thanks Twosheds. I too kind of regret moving away from the idea of being a 'stock' rec variant but I have decided that I want the project to continue to evolve and even go so far as to eventually become what UEP should have been, basically an expansion pack (or major DLC) for BZ2 (more maps, more modes, better modes) that is maintained with quality control being a major priority.

That said, VSR was designed to be modular and it would be very easy to rip out all the extras (such as races), leaving behind only the essential recycler variants, transplanting them into 1.3 proper.

Zero Angel wrote:That said, VSR was designed to be modular and it would be very easy to rip out all the extras (such as races), leaving behind only the essential recycler variants, transplanting them into 1.3 proper.

This should be your primary goal.

And the primary goal of VSR was to make the vets happy, and to that end it made changes that either A: regressed how things worked, or B: made them feel more powerful. ZA, sure you tempered that and kept it balanced, but that doesn't mean it isn't a regression.

Games that are active and see the meta game get locked into only 2 or 3 methods of play will mix it up to change that. VSR works to lock into a specific set of possible styles that are tied to what vets like, which is in our small population the regression back to as much of 'how it was' as can be done.

I must respectfully disagree N1, a lot of effort was put into making the lesser used units a more viable or strategic choice, Using a lancer, for example, in stock strat is basically just a stupid thing to do, it will just get destroyed in combat with any of the other units. The whole plan was to expand the workable strategies available by rebalancing things for use by Human players. The game, quite logically, was originally balanced with AI and human use very much in mind, hence the lancer and its stinger weapon, it does not matter to the AI that it handles like a greased skip full of concrete, because its driving skills are limited to following a path and spinning, its weapon makes up for that by being able to hit just about anything visible from the cockpit. Good for the Ai, but utterly hopeless in human vs human combat. The whole point of VSR was to expand the number of strategies that could successfully be used in strat, because peoples play styles were ultimately limited by what by what worked and what did not.

The deign of the AI, for note, is to shoot a bit, then spin around some times, then shoot a bit more. Really dumb AI.

Show me people actual bothering to use these tweaked units, and I will change my mind. In every recording I see online of a "vet strat" no one bothers. If something is changed, and it still isn't used, the change was not only not effective, but it did nothing. All those videos involve the same basic strategies, going all the way back to before VSR existed.