Mod updating discussion (split topic)

[Nielk1]

2.) Forgotten Enemies - I was told 1.2 was the best choice right now; I only see a 1.3 patch updated 11/26/13 ... is it any good?

Just a warning' RedDevil's FE for 1.3 is complete ****. He flips out if anyone who knows how to fix the problems says anything. I've been trying to rebuild FE (redoing its mission scripts in C++, etc) but its been very time consuming vs what free time I have.

The 1.2 version of FE remains the best, no matter what RD might say.

[GSH]

RD has release content to users. That counts more than just criticism in my book.

If you think you can do better, then get something released and let end users decide.

-- GSH

[Nielk1]

RD has release content to users. That counts more than just criticism in my book.

If you think you can do better, then get something released and let end users decide.

-- GSH

OK, here is something I don't understand...
That was a PM I sent, not a post...
How the **** is it in the thread?
It is even in my PM outbox...

Additionally, I have released mods that during their time had lots of play. One of them was the re-iterated twice MRVP, merged into the UEP for it's 3rd release, and even had some of its assets rolled into 1.3 (look at the hoverscav). The only reason you don't know about it is because it is something NEW, something ORIGINAL, and not a credit glomp on a prior work. Additionally, I don't go out of my way to proclaim from the rooftops how awesome I am for some body of work, because I believe that the work is the thing, not me.

OK, so, I had written that as a PM, it is EVEN IN MY OUTBOX, so I don't know how it got here. But that doesn't make it any less true, and because of a forum glitch now I am going to have to do what I didn't want to do:

RD's FE is broken. When people who know the nature of the engine enough to know how to fix bugs or do it properly point out issues to him, he attacks them. He has attacked GBD, AHadley, myself, and others because of this. When people who do not know the nature of the engine point out bugs, he tells them he "already has a fix on his side" that he will release soon. It is classic 'trying to make yourself look better' by hiding and otherwise demeaning those who know that what was wrong was for lack of a better word 'stupid' while using those same 'stupid' issues to act like a 'modding god' who has fixed people's issues before they even reported them.

Additionally, RD's G66 is broken, unstable, and a disappointment that has killed that mod forever.
Additionally, RD's Uler is broken, though still redeemable.
Additionally RD has made nothing of his own.
Additionally RD has ignored any fixes I have given him (in details or as actual assets) and has gone out of his way to tell me to then "make my own version of FE" telling me that I must not use a single thing he has done and in fact go back to the 1.2 version, ignoring all the fixes that were made to FE between the 1.2 version and his 1.3 version. That is not only not in the interest of the community and purely motivated by ego and personal gain, but it goes so far as to put me in a lesser equip than even he was when he started. It is downright disgusting and just another case of putting personal ego ahead of the project itself.

So there you go, due to a forum glitch I've had to post this in a public thread... Again...
Now I just wait to see if I get some undeserved board warning or my post deleting for daring to tell the truth.

[RubiconAlpha]

This statement is not meant to be directed towards any one person but my thoughts on the matter.

All the major pre-1.3 Battlezone mods (and some early 1.3 mods) are broken now to some degree. 1.3 has always been a moving target that way. The fact that any one person has tried to keep up with not one but three of them over the many years should be applauded.

If anyone dislikes the changes RD has done to them, there are always the 1.2 originals they could play.

I for one like the idea of some of this communities finest projects still having some life to them years after some of those creators have passed on.

Most of us here know the role RD has taken to keep those mods playable if not perfect yet. I have also never seen RD try to take credit for someone else's original work. He has just been doing what he can to keep up with the development of 1.3.

Therefore, if RD has not taken others "advice", "suggestions" or "work" over the years that is his call in my opinion. If it was not for people like RD, GBD and others continuing with other people's work, there would be hardly anything "new" to play since the 1.2 days.

Yes, there has been a few 1.3 projects released but then some major 1.3 code change means they must be updated. Not just once but repeatedly. I would like to thank the few of them that have even tried to keep their projects going or even in development this late in the development of 1.3.

That's all I have to say on the matter.

[Axeminister]

I agree with Rubicon, thank you to all who have done work so the players can play this fine game on newer and newer computers.

[Nielk1]

RD goes out of his way to insult people who tell him things when they know what they are talking about. Look at various posts he has made directed at me, GBD, and AHadley. He acts ENTIRELY different when people who don't know any better give him suggestions or note bugs.

Rubicon, you've been pretty blind to what's going on clearly.

Well, all this will be moot soon anyway. I've been working on fixing FE myself, with some help from AH and GBD, including various model fixes that RD has refused to use just because they came from me. He has no interest in the mods doing well, he only has interest in how he is valued from them. All past actions support that, you have to be blind not to see it, or just never around (the latter so far).

Anyone else want to help me FIX FE? I'm not going to prevent you from helping.

[RubiconAlpha]

Nielk1,

Perhaps I would get defensive and argumentative too if I had some in the community telling me "you're doing it all wrong if you are not doing things the way I would".

Someone not agreeing with you or doing and seeing things your way is not a personal attack on you. You and I have had this problem in the past over some issues. Even when I would try to drop it you came across as "you're wrong, I’m right, and you’re too dumb or blind to realize it”. Kind of like you just did above.

Even though I am not around for testing as I once was, I check the forums almost daily to see how things are going.

I would enjoy seeing anyone's take on Forgotten Enemies since in my opinion that is the one mod that saved Battlezone II for many of us. Personally, I could care less about the story mode. I could just run a 1.2 session on my old computer for that. What I most enjoyed was the added races, maps, weapons, effects and Instant Action options the mod gave us.

From all I read, RD was merging some of the best parts of the community’s classic mods together for Instant Action and multiplayer. Some hated the idea because it wasn't just like the original this or that. I for one like the idea and would enjoy some of these older projects getting an update with a boost in difficulty and options.

That is RD's take on things and he continues doing the work to keep those classics playable. If others would like to do things a different way I see little stopping them other than the time needed to do the work.

[Ded10c]

From all I read, RD was merging some of the best parts of the community’s classic mods together for Instant Action and multiplayer. Some hated the idea because it wasn't just like the original this or that. I for one like the idea and would enjoy some of these older projects getting an update with a boost in difficulty and options.

You're thinking of BZRAP;Tempest Storm started that ball rolling, then passed it to SkyNET who in turn passed it to Nielk1.

[RubiconAlpha]

It has been some time since I read it but I thought RD was trying to uniform certain assets from the mods he was working on and add more G66 like A.I. to them. That discussion was heated back then.

BZRAP was not the project I was thinking of. Nielk1 talents have touched many mods in the community and I wasn't trying to ignore that. Just that his open dislike for people that don't do or see things his way does show up from time to time on the forum. Even though he didn't mean to publicly crap all over everything RD has been working on with the latest comments, there is a history of infighting between the two of them.

I just wish they would ignore each other as I have learned to ignore those who have took the time to shoot down my ideas and suggestions in the past. This goes for forums long before GSH's. I don't come here to fight with people and I wasn't taking RD's side on everything. Just that he has done a great deal of work on more than a few mods for many years now and that should be acknowledged more than it has by a few.

[XxHAMADEHxX]

RD fixes mods while messing them up at the same time.
N1 Gives a suggestion
RD reacts in a negative way.
N1 trys to force his opinion and acts negatively?

I dont know RD well enough to state a problem I believe he has. But I do know N1 a bit.
However I have heard complaints from different forums on how he does things(not just from n1).

N1 doesn't like it when people dont take his opinions/ideas(which are generally good opinions/ideas).
He also doesn't understand that people interpret things in different ways. Which is a very big communication problem.

[Red Devil]

yup, that's me

[XxHAMADEHxX]

XD

[Ded10c]

N1 doesn't like it when people dont take his opinions/ideas(which are generally good opinions/ideas).
He also doesn't understand that people interpret things in different ways. Which is a very big communication problem.

As someone who knows him very well, this isn't the case. N1 doesn't mind if his suggestions aren't taken on board, but he does mind when he's belittled for making them or when he's brushed off.

It has been some time since I read it but I thought RD was trying to uniform certain assets from the mods he was working on and add more G66 like A.I. to them. That discussion was heated back then.

The AI was not such a problem. It was the talk of adding things like day/night cycles to FE that caused the trouble, I believe.

[Zero Angel]

On the other hand, things like the ZTV conversions were well done because they preserved the 'essence' of the original design. Having never played RD's FE due to being scared-off by the bad press, all my information is second-hand (and thus not as valuable) but I think first that if one is truly interested in making a good conversion then the basic design should first be perfected before adding things, and for the sake of the old players, I would heartily recommend that if new things are to be added, then there be preset buttons that allow one to experience FE as the original developers intended. I can see why N1 would be upset and applaud his desire to see that the original design be maintained wherever possible (in spite of the fierce resistance of the moderation staff here), not just because i'm with the 'generic anti-change crowd', but because certain things while good-in-theory are not always good-in-practice as the long history of BZ2 modification has proven.

[Red Devil]

correction:

i don't make mods better. i try to get them to run using the 1.3 patch - because nobody else lifted a finger to do so except for Commando and Greenheart - and i add options along the way.

op·tion
[op-shuhn]
noun
1.
the power or right of choosing.
2.
something that may be or is chosen; choice.
3.
the act of choosing.
4.
an item of equipment or a feature that may be chosen as an addition to or replacement for standard equipment and features: a car with a long list of extra-cost options; a telephoto lens option for a camera.


i post them and post updates, foolishly hoping people provide constructive feedback.

instead, i get arguing for the sake of arguing, raging, blustering, and vainglorious boasting from elitist snobs in the peanut gallery.

those people are toxic trolls, so i put them on my ignore list because all they do is turn requests for feedback into flame wars, discouraging further interest.

if people want to provide constructive feedback in a civil, non-denigrating, and non-confrontational manner, i'm all ears. if not, go jump off a bridge or something useful like that.

i'm human and i make mistakes all the time and i like to think that i learn from them - attempting to help keep mods alive by putting - literally - hundreds of hours of work into them might be one of them.

the macular degeneration in my right eye is getting worse, so i'd like to get things in a good state before i stop, but...meh.