Battlezone II v1.3.6.1 Public Beta released

[darkwarrior]

This patch is fine if you are a mpi player. As MPIs do not have the player vs player aspect so the chances of something going wrong is completely minimized. In terms of strategy games, it is quite poor right now. When players join into the strats, they can cause potential server lags, which kick all clients from the game. I would consider this an MPI patch. Unfortunately, if the strat aspect is not fixed, strats will likely die out.

[Nielk1]

When players join into the strats, they can cause potential server lags, which kick all clients from the game.

That doesn't make any sense. That should happen in all game modes. Bugs like that can't be game mode selective.

If it is broken in that way for STRATs it is broken to MPIs and DMs too. To try to say it is only broken for that one with with a bug so generic is like trying to polarize the community along the lines of game modes or some bullshit (which I see every damn time a patch comes out and it makes me sick).

So, is this a good patch or not? Worth downloading? Unbiased opinions please.

Also, when I download this, I make a fresh install right? I do this by, simply becasue its been a while, Go to the directory or something and hit install, then save it to a diferrent place right. Just want to refresh myself. Thank You.

Well, as the point of any beta is to TEST it, I would assume that even if it is a lame duck it should be downloaded and tested. The issue is that if a few people say 'ew no its broken as hell' and give no real details and no one else downloads, what can be done to fix it?

[Commando]

Everyone I've heard from that's played this patch has lots of problems even worse than the last, I wouldn't know about MP though since the game crashes when searching for sessions, even after multiple installation attempts to a fresh CD install.

Poetic justice right there. No big loss. We have one less lamer harassing MPI players and one less modifying odfs in-game. I would find it funny if that behavior was intentional, sadly I doubt it is.

[darkwarrior]

When players join into the strats, they can cause potential server lags, which kick all clients from the game.

That doesn't make any sense. That should happen in all game modes. Bugs like that can't be game mode selective.

If it is broken in that way for STRATs it is broken to MPIs and DMs too. To try to say it is only broken for that one with with a bug so generic is like trying to polarize the community along the lines of game modes or some bullshit (which I see every damn time a patch comes out and it makes me sick).

Since we all love playing the quoting game on this forum, I think I will join in as well. The thing is nielk1, bugs are not something that make sense. It is possible for things to happen that are unexplainable or go against your logic. MPIs do not have the player vs player obstacle. Maybe when a player joins in the middle of a match and it is player vs player it puts things out of sync, causing lag outs, when it inserts the player on a team. Who knows. Testing MPI does not test strat, dm, race, KOTH, etc. That is the most stupid logic I have ever heard. Bugs are not present on all game modes. The other thing is that MPIs have less players in them, and this may contribute to why there are no lagout issues, on top of being player vs computer. In strats it is 4 vs 4, in MPI it is just 4 vs computer. That changes things immensely.

I haven't seen any MPI players complain, mainly due to the fact that there is no player vs. player aspect. When the engine already has all the AI unit's movements predetermined it runs more smoothly. When it has to compensate for players who are engaging other players, it seems to perform more poorly, as seen through multiple builds. Though this issue has been greatly improved, there is now the new obstacle of strats lagging out all of the players, when new players join.

Also I am know trying to polarize the community into a specific game mode, but if there is no quick fix for this issues, strategies will die. All I know is the issue has not existed in MPIs, but it is existing in strategy games. There is no need to pipe up about me, refering to a different gametype that is in need of a quick fix. I am not trying to alienate MPIs, but they are fine now, lets fix this issue and not leave it there.

Darkwarrior.

[Nielk1]

Since we all love playing the quoting game on this forum, I think I will join in as well.

Quoting is not a game. It is used to help target your reply to a specific part. You quoted my entire post and then said 'quoting game' as if to try to demean my post without needing to even reference the content.

The thing is nielk1, bugs are not something that make sense. It is possible for things to happen that are unexplainable or go against your logic. MPIs do not have the player vs player obstacle. Maybe when a player joins in the middle of a match and it is player vs player it puts things out of sync, causing lag outs, when it inserts the player on a team. Who knows.

Actually the code paths are identical. The only real difference you can claim is max player count over MPI and object count over DM. In either case the numbers of players being reported to destabilize STRAT but 'not MPI' is as low as MPI accepts. In fact, it is more likely for MPI to malfunction than STRAT because of AIPs when the player counts match.

Testing MPI does not test strat, dm, race, KOTH, etc. That is the most stupid logic I have ever heard. Bugs are not present on all game modes. The other thing is that MPIs have less players in them, and this may contribute to why there are no lagout issues, on top of being player vs computer. In strats it is 4 vs 4, in MPI it is just 4 vs computer. That changes things immensely.

Good job putting words in my mouth. It seems a favorite tactic of EVERYONE as of late in any sort of disagreement to turn it into some sort of **** throwing fight. I never said that only MPI was tested, I simple said that this sort of bug is generic and not game mode specific. Further more, in my reply to the above I defeat your other point since you are saying that the difference is 'the player count' when the games that are so far at issue have the same # of players as the MPIs in many cases. In fact, when the player count is the same, the MPI game is MORE stressful to the net and computer.

I haven't seen any MPI players complain, mainly due to the fact that there is no player vs. player aspect. When the engine already has all the AI unit's movements predetermined it runs more smoothly. When it has to compensate for players who are engaging other players, it seems to perform more poorly, as seen through multiple builds. Though this issue has been greatly improved, there is now the new obstacle of strats lagging out all of the players, when new players join.

Also I am know trying to polarize the community into a specific game mode, but if there is no quick fix for this issues, strategies will die.

It doesn't matter if you have seen MPI players complain, you are making a blanket assumption that MPI is fine and START is the only game mode broken and trying to use that to claim that the patch is an MPI patch. That very assertion is what makes this a polarizing thing. You are making statements abut something for which you know nothing about as if they are fact. I am going to take a moment to shatter this malformed perception for you: "MPI is experiencing the same issues." So, how about instead of throwing in little quips like "MPI patch" and "STRAT will die" you actually look into what you are talking about

All I know is the issue has not existed in MPIs, but it is existing in strategy games. There is no need to pipe up about me, refering to a different gametype that is in need of a quick fix. I am not trying to alienate MPIs, but they are fine now, lets fix this issue and not leave it there.

No. NO. You do NOT know. You are making an assumption and then touting it as a fact in a way that can do nothing but break the community in half over something as stupid as game mode performance. MPI is not fine, nor is DM, nor is RACE, nor is STRAT. They ALL are suffering from many of the same issues and to try to falsely present only one so called 'victim' in this serves only to attempt to destroy what is left of this small community.

I implore you to actually *think* before you reply or even post again on this subject. You have been doing nothing but making assumptions. Making assumptions about the stability of other game modes, making assumptions about what I mean when I say something, and making assumptions about the workings of the underlying engine of which only two on this entire board can know. I can say that supported by all I know about programming and what GSH has said about the game and its faults over time (divergences from these 'good practices') that this issue is a generic one that effects EVERYTHING. I want *EVERYONE* to stop trying to make their side the wounded and dying one and actually cooperate to fix these issues.

I have not had the time to test the private 1.3 patch as much as I should and by all means we do not have enough active testers. However, I find no reason to take time out of my day to work on something for which a public release gathers such garbage claims and attempts to make war between such small and frankly childish parts of this community.

The first step one should take after they encounter a bug in a BETA PATCH is to give a meaningful and non-biased report of the issue with its specifics and try to recreate it on demand. Methods may be revealed to give better logging or reports and through general cooperation and effort, the bugs will be fixed. NOTHING will be fixed by pointing fingers and making baseless accusations.

I could make a 'grass is always greener' argument here but your biased on this subject makes me think that the other side of the fence, MPI, is not just green in your eyes but gilded and gem encrusted when in reality it is in exactly the same state as every other game mode. ESPECIALLY for an engine wide bug.

[GSH]

Odds are, this is, as Nielk1 says, a bug that really affects more modes than just one. I'd prefer it if more people preferring a certain game type had less of a chip on their shoulder, and more of a willingness to work *with* me. Mindlessly attacking things only makes things worse. If you actually want something like this fixed, then working with me, not against me, is your best bet. That's been true for the last decade, time to learn that rule. Bitterness is fun, but ultimately leads to your parts of the BZ2 community being a ghost town that nobody wants to play with.

If people are willing to submit logs, then I'd say do this:

1) Back up addon\config\localprefs_bzone.ini
2) Copy addon\config\localprefs_bzone_mplogging.ini over addon\config\localprefs_bzone.ini
3) Run, then submit logs. Submit both the battlezone.log and the latest logs\chatlog* file. These logs are in $MyDocs/My Games/Battlezone II on Vista/Win7 and in the same directory as bzone.exe on XP. Submit logfiles from server and all clients.

Also, at the first sign of problems, break off and submit logs. Players of a certain game type seem to care only for TheWin(tm). That's fine. But, to make things better in the long run, they need to suppress that urge and think more like testers.

Recent private builds have had localprefs_bzone_mplogging.ini already installed as localprefs_bzone.ini, but for public releases, that is NOT the case. _mplogging turns on logfile keeping, which slowly eats HD space as you play, and might run slightly slower as it logs early and often. I assume that testers can clean out logfiles as needed; end users (by default) only get one battlezone.log file that's overwritten each run.

-- GSH

[darkwarrior]

Quoting is not a game. It is used to help target your reply to a specific part. You quoted my entire post and then said 'quoting game' as if to try to demean my post without needing to even reference the content.

The reason why I call it the quoting game is because you seem to love to quote people specifically, take everything they say and then demean it. Also if you read closely, which it appears you did as you picked apart my post like a raging piranha, you would of noticed I commented on each point you made. You sir are making false claims to demean me, of which I do not appreciate.

Actually the code paths are identical. The only real difference you can claim is max player count over MPI and object count over DM. In either case the numbers of players being reported to destabilize STRAT but 'not MPI' is as low as MPI accepts. In fact, it is more likely for MPI to malfunction than STRAT because of AIPs when the player counts match.

Congratulations, you know more than I do, bravo. Alright, so to the point. I made three points, one that some bugs don't make sense, maybe to just me as I am new to some stuff. Two that it could be related to the amount of players, and three that the player vs player aspect could be causing this issue. All I did was take two big differences between STRATS and MPIs, then tested it with some players and made a conclusion. Sorry for trying to test it and report some findings and even trying to think of a solution. Next time I will just not say anything. Also you say it is more likely for a MPI to malfunction, but the thing I do not get, is that STRATS seem to have more issues than MPIs, maybe due to limited testing. That is what I am trying to say.

Good job putting words in my mouth. It seems a favorite tactic of EVERYONE as of late in any sort of disagreement to turn it into some sort of **** throwing fight. I never said that only MPI was tested, I simple said that this sort of bug is generic and not game mode specific. Further more, in my reply to the above I defeat your other point since you are saying that the difference is 'the player count' when the games that are so far at issue have the same # of players as the MPIs in many cases. In fact, when the player count is the same, the MPI game is MORE stressful to the net and computer.

I am sorry that what you said gave me that impression, but it did. You need to understand where I am coming from. I bring up a strat issue, and it starts a whole ****, but when MPI issues are brought up on these boards hardly anything comes out of it. You talk about trying to defeat one of my points. I thought we worked together on this kind of stuff. Why is a community trying to defeat each other, this not some game of RISK. One of the most annoying things on this board is that many people just cannot bear to accept being wrong, or to even look wrong, or try to find a solution together and compromise. Everyone fights as if they believe they are 100% right. You can just say an MPI game is more stressful, but after playing multiple MPIs with 5 players on it, I have never had lag issues in the game or poor performance. I think you are just making a false claim to try to demean my points and prove yours. Your going to have to prove this one to me, because MPIs do not seem to fail under stress testing... I have seen it personally..

It doesn't matter if you have seen MPI players complain, you are making a blanket assumption that MPI is fine and START is the only game mode broken and trying to use that to claim that the patch is an MPI patch. That very assertion is what makes this a polarizing thing. You are making statements abut something for which you know nothing about as if they are fact. I am going to take a moment to shatter this malformed perception for you: "MPI is experiencing the same issues." So, how about instead of throwing in little quips like "MPI patch" and "STRAT will die" you actually look into what you are talking about

It isn't really an assumption, it is more of common sense. I, to be honest have not seen MPI players complain other than griefing issues. Looking at the fact that there are no complaints, in itself proves that it cannot be as bad as STRATS if just strat players are complaining. Also funny how hypocrisy works, but you just put words in my mouth. Claiming that I am only saying STRATS have issues, I simply said strategies are having some issues as that is what I play, I NEVER said MPIs were perfect. Again you demean what I say and are trying to SHATTER my perceptions... Geese, do you hate me or something. This is not a fight, I am stating opinions.

No. NO. You do NOT know. You are making an assumption and then touting it as a fact in a way that can do nothing but break the community in half over something as stupid as game mode performance. MPI is not fine, nor is DM, nor is RACE, nor is STRAT. They ALL are suffering from many of the same issues and to try to falsely present only one so called 'victim' in this serves only to attempt to destroy what is left of this small community.

Ironic how you mention that strategy appears to be a victim. Obviously, from observing populations in BZ2, there are 2-styles of gamers, player-vs-player and player-vs-computer. When all the testers' majority testing is on MPI and not STRATs or DMs, etc, you cannot blaming me, or other STRAT players for feeling like our mode is being ignored. Every patch it feels like STRATS have more issues, we try to report them and we only get shot in the back by our own BZ2 community. Like you are doing right now with me.

I implore you to actually *think* before you reply or even post again on this subject. You have been doing nothing but making assumptions. Making assumptions about the stability of other game modes, making assumptions about what I mean when I say something, and making assumptions about the workings of the underlying engine of which only two on this entire board can know. I can say that supported by all I know about programming and what GSH has said about the game and its faults over time (divergences from these 'good practices') that this issue is a generic one that effects EVERYTHING. I want *EVERYONE* to stop trying to make their side the wounded and dying one and actually cooperate to fix these issues.

Making this kind of comment, makes you look even more arrogant. Like I said, I made opinionated claims and possible solutions to the problems. Who are you to tell me of what I can and cannot say on a board where you have freedom to state an opinion. Step off of that mighty horse and stop trying to look superior to me by trying to correct some flaws that YOU are making ASSUMPTIONS of. GSH mentions personal attacks, well this feels like a personal attack and I feel offended. The fact is STRATS are dying, there are less of them. What do you mean everyone is trying to make their side look like they are dying. MPIs are not dying, no1 claims that they are. They are the majority of games as GSH has said in the past. You may think that I am picking apart MPIs, but you do just as much by claiming that STRATs deserve no extra attention, which is implied by all your replies. I think that MPI has been looked at quite a bit. And they only reason why it is tested over STRATs is that testers do not want to versus other testers, as Daylight told me in a test strat.

I have not had the time to test the private 1.3 patch as much as I should and by all means we do not have enough active testers. However, I find no reason to take time out of my day to work on something for which a public release gathers such garbage claims and attempts to make war between such small and frankly childish parts of this community.

You are going to have to explain, how I am acting childish on this. I stated opinions and possible reasons to issues. If I wanted to be childish about it, I would be like some griefers going into MPIs and spawning dabomb are demoing buildings. I do not hate MPI, I just think STRAT needs more attention (once again).

The first step one should take after they encounter a bug in a BETA PATCH is to give a meaningful and non-biased report of the issue with its specifics and try to recreate it on demand. Methods may be revealed to give better logging or reports and through general cooperation and effort, the bugs will be fixed. NOTHING will be fixed by pointing fingers and making baseless accusations.

I did not give a biased report, I played some MPIs on 6.1, as you said you haven't really tested... well I have. It is a fact that these issues are happening with STRATs and not on MPI, as I have seen it first hand, at least it is not noticeable on MPI. I guess if I say it happened on a STRAT, but not MPI it is biased, but I bet $100 on paypal, that I claimed that MPI had the issue there would not even be an argument. All I said was it happened on a STRAT and not MPI, no need to flame me over it. Again the hypocrisy... Point fingers, you been point at me for making pointless opinions, but if they were so pointless, you would not have to type so much to try to prove them wrong. Your whole argument in itself is just some way of manipulating my opinions to look wrong, so you can win your fight that you do not want to lose.

I could make a 'grass is always greener' argument here but your biased on this subject makes me think that the other side of the fence, MPI, is not just green in your eyes but gilded and gem encrusted when in reality it is in exactly the same state as every other game mode. ESPECIALLY for an engine wide bug.

My apologies, for thinking it was only related to STRATS. As I said, the bug was not noticeable on MPI, and I found it noticeable on STRATS. Apparently that is very BIASED, even though I took the time to check the issue on both. Sorry for being biased, or maybe the definitions of biased and un-biased have switched, in which you would be correct, I would then be biased. Try to see where I am coming from, it takes enough courage to even talk on these boards, as an opinion is shot down in an instance. I usually give up when talking with you Nielk1 on these boards, I usually ignore your replies and quotes, as they are just some way of insulting my intelligents.

Odds are, this is, as Nielk1 says, a bug that really affects more modes than just one. I'd prefer it if more people preferring a certain game type had less of a chip on their shoulder, and more of a willingness to work *with* me. Mindlessly attacking things only makes things worse. If you actually want something like this fixed, then working with me, not against me, is your best bet. That's been true for the last decade, time to learn that rule. Bitterness is fun, but ultimately leads to your parts of the BZ2 community being a ghost town that nobody wants to play with.

I do not know how you assumed that I was working against, never at one point did I demean or dishonor you somehow. It is not my intentions to work against you. I just stated my experience so far in 6.1 and 6.0. I have been trying to work with you for about half a year on issues like lag, warp, etc, which did not even get mentioned from MPI testers, you did not even know they existed and acted surprised when I posted the first video on mantis. Only mpi warp issue was AIs warping from time to time, when you told them to go one way and then the other quickly, and their animations of them moving glitched momentarily. At least that is what I got out of testing for MPI. It would be easier to work with you on some STRAT related issues that I found, if people would open up more to strat testing, and believe me I have tried, they don't test in the strats, they see it as a waste of time and go AFK. I work on STRAT related issues, because I KNOW that MPI is for sure covered by the majority of the testers. This is not an assumption. I test issues of strats in MPIs and find them to not be present so I report the difference. GSH you know from experience with me that I have found bugs only pertaining to STRATS. I do not know how I am being bitter. Read Nielk1s replies completely shattering my opinions...

Just to close this off, I am just going to say that I am not going to argue this any further. By the time Nielk1 gets to the bottom of this reply, he will likely have 22-35 quotes (assumption) of what I said, with very clever ideas of how to demean it. The fact is this demeaning thing can go both ways easily. The hard part is, you guys will just all stick together and try to fight me until you win. Well consider this as my forfeit, because to be honest, I don't care if I win or lose your silly argument Nielk1, I am just stating stuff to try to resolve issues in BZ2. I am done on these boards, if people are going to try to flame me for opinions again, and try to look like someone superior because they have been a programmer of bz2, or a forum mod, or a game developer, then I see no reason to try and contribute to this game with you guys. It is not something that I want to be apart of. I would like to see this all end off where you guys could see where I am coming from, but we will have to see. Also I will be the greater man here and admit to one thing. I do enjoy STRATs more than MPIs, and enjoy every player-vs-player aspect of bz2 over MPI, as it requires extra thinking and it is a challenge for me, if it is bad of me to feel that way sorry for my opinion (waits for quote). And for the record Nielk1 I really thought hard about what I typed here and I thought before I typed.

Thanks,

Darkwarrior.

[Commando]

I do not know how you assumed that I was working against, never at one point did I demean or dishonor you somehow. It is not my intentions to work against you. I just stated my experience so far in 6.1 and 6.0. I have been trying to work with you for about half a year on issues like lag, warp, etc, which did not even get mentioned from MPI testers, you did not even know they existed and acted surprised when I posted the first video on mantis. Only mpi warp issue was AIs warping from time to time, when you told them to go one way and then the other quickly, and their animations of them moving glitched momentarily. At least that is what I got out of testing for MPI. It would be easier to work with you on some STRAT related issues that I found, if people would open up more to strat testing, and believe me I have tried, they don't test in the strats, they see it as a waste of time and go AFK. I work on STRAT related issues, because I KNOW that MPI is for sure covered by the majority of the testers. This is not an assumption. I test issues of strats in MPIs and find them to not be present so I report the difference. GSH you know from experience with me that I have found bugs only pertaining to STRATS. I do not know how I am being bitter. Read Nielk1s replies completely shattering my opinions...

I highly doubt GSH was calling you out on anything. That was a reference to anyone who had posted about the lag. I would have helped, but I work a majority of the time that anyone is around. That was directed at anyone and everyone experiencing the issue. All he is saying is that he can't do anything if logs aren't submitted. You can say it lags all day, but without any data, it does no good.

Testing Strat wasn't a problem. Testing in general was a problem. The only times I even bothered to fire up bz2 was when Axeminister posted in IRC that he was launching a game. Otherwise, I assumed launching bz2 would just be a waste of my time and would result in disappointment, which I get enough of in RL. I have 2.5+ years of experience to back that statement up, prior to you being added.

[General BlackDragon]

Enough!

Go play, Give logs, post them anywhere on this forum, I don't care where.

And if any of you want to argue any more, DO IT WITH A DAMN MINIGUN SCOUT IN GAME!

[darkwarrior]

My apologies to GSH then, I just took it the wrong way.

[index]

this patch is not the worst, but it isnt near best. i mean comon, my most serious problem is ONE FPS LOWER THAN USUAL! then my other problems are:
you can see the 1.3.6 games, the ports to host arent (still) opened (automatically), and my least problem; MORE LAG/TIMEOUTS

a large group of players including me are already heading back to another one.

i am planning on the same thing. i dont blame you GSH (and others, if any), this is still a good patch. just not satisfactory

but lets start to look at the positives. there IS less warp, but my guess at the expense of the above. it also is better NIVIDIA and DirectX graphics (if you notice), but my guess is that is at the cost of the FPS...

And if any of you want to argue any more, DO IT WITH A DAMN MINIGUN SCOUT IN GAME!

[Commando]

Graphics haven't changed between pb6 and 6.1 as far as I can recall. It was MP-focused for the most part.

[MrTwosheds]

This failure is due entirely to a lack of dedication by many of the members of the TEST group. If some could put as much effort into testing as they do into arguing, we might just manage to avoid screw ups like this.
Its an unfortunate fact that we never had more than 4 players in any test session that I was in, mpi, strat or Dm

Of those Testers who do actually do tests, there is no bias towards any particular game type.

Those in the test group will be aware that efforts were made to recruit more testers, but the actual result is that it seems that less than 10 percent of those joining the group actually do anything useful or ever show up in a test session.

If those strat players NOT in the test group could now assist in defining what the problems actually are and provide data, It would be of great help as clearly the test group cannot do it effectively. The patch was released knowing that bugs were probably there and that release was the only way to flush them out.

I have not seen any crashes when searching for sessions.

[index]

higher lag and timeouts (however there isn't much of a change in ping)
more warping in certain games
FPS is one frame lower
timeouts when there is a lot of combat/movement
ports arent automatically opened anymore
we can still see the 1.3.6 games/servers

however, as with 2sheds, i havent crashed when searching for sessions...

hey moderaters and GSH, could i be part of the test group if it doesnt take too much time?

[Vearie]

Most of the "beta testers" NEVER even really played the game before, and did nothing but mod, but don't even do any of that anymore, infact people like squirrel who never even modded, or played, but just posted on the forums as a substitute for a social life were givin powers, which are and will be endlessly abused, even at GSH's knowledge as long as it's used against strat players.

There is no point trying to fix this for another failure MPI-Mod 6 or 8 months from now. When I got 1.3 I knew it was ridiculous after seeing these "recycler variants" with their new threed/bz2me model ships and 300m high-damage slug cannons, this one which isn't even playable for testing is just a complete joke though.

There is no point in telling somebody that surrounds himself with idiots as his admins/mods/testers though, some people have such a big ego they literally cannot be convinced they are wrong about anything, ever.

BZ2 would be thriving if 1.3 never came, infact it was just around TA5 that 1.2 became the minority, modders can shut up about this, they don't have the tinniest rabbit-**** clue what I'm talking about rather they think they do or not, they shouldn't even be here.
On top of all this, the new theme for this forum sucks.