Complaints about pb6.x (split)

[GSH]

Topic split. Not relevant to 89e, specifically.

And, I'll say this: don't pretend that pb5.1 was perfect. There's bugs where all players could occasionally lag out when someone joined. And, plenty of warp/lag bugs that have been fixed for pb6+ are also present in it.

One of the goals for pb6+ was NatNeg, which democratized hosting. People can now host how and when they want; it's not in the hands of some old grognards trying to defend their turf. I see more games, and more players in games w/ pb6+ than 1.0-1.3pb5.1, checking all day. The democratization of hosting has led to more MPI games, but that is people's choices. Let people have their freedom to play as they like, rather than trying to force them to become a clone of yourself playing your pet game mode. Fewer strat games is not the "death" of BZ2. Strat is not the only game mode in BZ2 worth playing. Strat is only one of many, and that game mode is being hurt (I feel) more by the uber-competitive spirit of strat, where winning is the only thing. Not everyone wants to play that way. If they want co-op MPI games, at least they're playing BZ2. Griefing MPI -- as some stratters have admitted -- is not the way to expand BZ2's community. People playing MPI are smarter than those griefers give them credit for, and such griefing makes the MPIers less likely to play strat. Deal with it.

Bugs in pb6 like games not disappearing seem mostly gone in 1.3.6.1. A little honesty and credit for fixes would be appreciated, rather than this high maintenance drama queen whining. Pings of ??? mean that the host hasn't forwarded ports. If that helps you mentally filter out people who don't know enough to forward ports, great. To me, they're playing BZ2, which is better than them having to beg for games from sociopathic grognards.

Strat players may complain about not being listened to, but as long as they try and move things that are not negotiable, they're being stupid. This comes from their insistence on being loud and in charge in game, and a mistaken belief that their game actions can carry over into real life. Instead, they should find one of the many areas they can speak on.

Some of the non-negotiables for BZ2 development:
1) All game modes shipped with a BZ2 patch are legitimate in BZ2 and the BZ2 community. Strat is merely one of many modes, and does not, will not, receive extra attention. If stratters refuse to participate in 1.3 development, then strat will receive less attention, and that's the stratters fault for not participating.

2) All mods are legitimate in BZ2. Not just 1.2 w/ ZST -- which to be honest is a mod. As above, people should have the option and freedom to play any mod (and any patch) they want. I believe in allowing options, not just forcing people into playing one game mode all the time.

3) Flying is a bug, and if you want it, go play 1.0-1.2. There's no forced upgrades, as those that have recently played 1.3pb5.1 have proven.

1.3pb6+ is the present and future of BZ2, by number of games played and total players. People have the opportunity to participate in its development. Those that keep trying to drag BZ2 back to some mythical past where things were "better" (more like still broken, just in different ways) are fighting a losing battle. They've been trying that approach for 7+ years now. When will they wake up and figure out that they need to change tactics. I recommend dropping the "loud & in charge" domineering approach. You're not being listened to because of the way you speak. You won't be listened to until you change and approach BZ2 with humility.

-- GSH

[Zax]

Edit2: Changed my mind. I don't feel the need to defend myself.

[Commando]

I don't know if the sessions not disappearing has improved or not. I was in a game on Wednesday with RD where the session still showed up, with me in the session, minutes after I had left. The session was not joinable as it had been taken down so the host could restart to get voice working for him. It may have been a fluke, not sure.

[TheJamsh]

Honestly, how many games are in the Lobby most of the time? I'm counting all games, whatever mode/version

[Fulmen]

And, I'll say this: don't pretend that pb5.1 was perfect. There's bugs where all players could occasionally lag out when someone joined. And, plenty of warp/lag bugs that have been fixed for pb6+ are also present in it.

It wasn't, but overall it was a lot more stable than the versions after it.

One of the goals for pb6+ was NatNeg, which democratized hosting. People can now host how and when they want; it's not in the hands of some old grognards trying to defend their turf. I see more games, and more players in games w/ pb6+ than 1.0-1.3pb5.1, checking all day. The democratization of hosting has led to more MPI games, but that is people's choices. Let people have their freedom to play as they like, rather than trying to force them to become a clone of yourself playing your pet game mode. Fewer strat games is not the "death" of BZ2. Strat is not the only game mode in BZ2 worth playing. Strat is only one of many, and that game mode is being hurt (I feel) more by the uber-competitive spirit of strat, where winning is the only thing. Not everyone wants to play that way. If they want co-op MPI games, at least they're playing BZ2. Griefing MPI -- as some stratters have admitted -- is not the way to expand BZ2's community. People playing MPI are smarter than those griefers give them credit for, and such griefing makes the MPIers less likely to play strat. Deal with it.

Lol grognards, that's an interesting term.

I don't like the fact that there are almost always a billion MPI games up and nothing with a challenge (read: strats), but I never particularly took part in the MPI-wrecking that was going on a few months ago. Personally I never really approved of it unless the victim was an arrogant asshole, most of which weren't, but some were. "uber-competitive spirit of strat, where winning is the only thing" is a myth created by butthurt idiots who are just mad because they suck at strats. Winning has never been the "only thing" in strats by stratters. We have always tried to balance the teams as much as possible to ensure a good game. If all players are roughly equal in skill we use a number-based picking system. Recycler is never targeted first unless it's a desperate last-measure rush to win the game. And so on. If you'd have partook in these strats or if you'd at least have active testers you would know these things.

Bugs in pb6 like games not disappearing seem mostly gone in 1.3.6.1.

Yes, my mistake. As of 6.1 some of them still stay up for a while but mostly it's fixed.

Strat players may complain about not being listened to, but as long as they try and move things that are not negotiable, they're being stupid. This comes from their insistence on being loud and in charge in game, and a mistaken belief that their game actions can carry over into real life.

I know some stratters are loud, rude etc. but seriously, those are just a select few. You are generalizing us stratters just as much as some of us are generalizing you modders. And tbh there are some in your bunch who are even worse than the loudest and rudest we have. At least I don't recall any of us DDoS'ing you guys or arbitrarily removing entire pages of feedback or banning anyone for that feedback.

Some of the non-negotiables for BZ2 development:
1) All game modes shipped with a BZ2 patch are legitimate in BZ2 and the BZ2 community. Strat is merely one of many modes, and does not, will not, receive extra attention. If stratters refuse to participate in 1.3 development, then strat will receive less attention, and that's the stratters fault for not participating.

From the past year I can recall many active stratters that were willing to participate in testing, including myself at some point. Either you or your biased cronies would not accept our offer to help you keep the game alive. In addition, I heard PH got kicked out from the testing team for "inactivity". That is extremely ironic, considering he was probably by far the most active out of all your testers. I think it was just an excuse to target him.

2) All mods are legitimate in BZ2. Not just 1.2 w/ ZST -- which to be honest is a mod. As above, people should have the option and freedom to play any mod (and any patch) they want. I believe in allowing options, not just forcing people into playing one game mode all the time.

Sure. I've never disagreed with this.

3) Flying is a bug, and if you want it, go play 1.0-1.2. There's no forced upgrades, as those that have recently played 1.3pb5.1 have proven.

I'm okay with removing hovering. I didn't like the other changes to physics and unit movement, but I can tolerate them. No forced upgrades in BZ2, true. However you spam ads for your patches at least in 1.0-1.2. I think I counted nearly 10 advertisements at some point in the past. That's quite close to forcing IMO.

1.3pb6+ is the present and future of BZ2, by number of games played and total players.

1.3 has only begun beating 1.2 in activity since the introduction of DX9 support, which was great since it brought back a lot of old players and made everything better for newer comps.

Since TA5 I've agreed with that statement, 1.3 is the future. But I'm seeing many flaws with the latest versions and that's why I came back to post on these forums. 6.1 has seriously damaged activity in 1.3 and I'm sure you dislike that fact as much as I do.

People have the opportunity to participate in its development. Those that keep trying to drag BZ2 back to some mythical past where things were "better" (more like still broken, just in different ways) are fighting a losing battle.

A lot more people, games, good players, more challenges and fun to experience back then. How can you say that was not better?

They've been trying that approach for 7+ years now. When will they wake up and figure out that they need to change tactics. I recommend dropping the "loud & in charge" domineering approach. You're not being listened to because of the way you speak. You won't be listened to until you change and approach BZ2 with humility.

I believe I answered these points earlier in this post. But I'll add to that, that I really think you should listen to us more and not be so biased. The most active and faithful-to-the-game players have always been stratters. And not all of us are "loud & in charge".

[Zax]

Yes, many of you were considered. Sly was SO CLOSE, but then he just started his griefing, which had to take our time to test and figure out how to stop it. Contributing to the problem is how NOT to be part of the team.

Keep in mind, the programmer does NOT, repeat NOT care about who plays the game. That's the designer's job to worry about, and also QA. There is no designer on hand, and we are the QA. No major stratters except twosheds are on it, and I try to look out for those guys too, but it can be difficult. The 1.3.62 will absolutely defeat ta5.

[Fulmen]

Honestly, how many games are in the Lobby most of the time? I'm counting all games, whatever mode/version

Currently (23:51 GMT+3):

1.0-1.3pb5.1:



1.3pb6-b89e



"No games? Again? More people play 1.3pb6.1" *cough cough*.

A couple of minutes later we got a 8/8 strat in 1.2.

[Iron Maiden]

Isn't 23:51 equal, at loeast on the eastern Seaboard, to 11:51?

Show us several different intervals, then I will be impressed.

[Zax]

snip

Unfortunately, not enough players isn't a bug in the program. So not our problem.

[Fulmen]

Isn't 23:51 equal, at loeast on the eastern Seaboard, to 11:51?

Show us several different intervals, then I will be impressed.

Something like that. But there's always 8/8 strats on weekends in 1.2.

And man, I'm really rusty at commanding in 1.2, to say the least...

EDIT: I'll take that back, it all comes back after a couple of games. Haven't had this much fun in BZ2 in a looong time.

[Nielk1]

If you guys want I can finish my gamespy game list logger. It was part of an online game-lister I never finished.

[appel]

If you guys want I can finish my gamespy game list logger. It was part of an online game-lister I never finished.

Being able to see games on a web page is really cool.



One thing about 1.3. I don't really dislike the patch, I play 1.2 ZST and also 1.3. I think it's fine to have both options.

What's fun in 1.2 is that is has some type of "rock-paper-scissor" gameplay element in it, the warping, hovering, exploits, and all those bad things GSH lists. In 1.3 it's very elegant and calculable.

Luck was a strong friend to have in 1.2, but in 1.3 he's all but gone.

It's like in dogfights, if you're down to 30% hp, you can run and survive in 1.2, because the physics are much more responsive and it's more difficult to chase a scout that can hover-strafe-fly in the air, and that's even from 2-3 enemies shooting at you. If you're down to 30% hp in 1.3 even against 1 enemy and start to run you're pretty much scrapped.

GSH only considers the game engine mechanics, not the "fun" mechanics. But granted, if bugs introduce those rock-paper-scissor fun elements, and those bugs are squashed, for valid reasons, and GSH can't really add into the game new features to add that rock-paper-scissor element back in, then that's ... well, a pickle.

But games are not about game engine mechanics, they are about "fun" mechanics.

If I were him I'd be looking at ways to add some of these elements back into the game, without breaking any game design rules and without adding bugs or cheating

[Ded10c]

If you guys want I can finish my gamespy game list logger. It was part of an online game-lister I never finished.

I need to speak to you sometime after monday. About this kind of thing.