BZ2 1.3.6.4b patch - OPEN BETA & TESTING

[Zero Angel]

I agree. One would never be able to keep everyone absolutely safe without impairing the experience for non-griefers. Doing so would lead to a watered down experience for everyone and the battle would take infinitely long to resolve since there will always be legitimate aspects which can be misused. If 'policing by policy' is to be done, then I think it should stop at the extent where someone else can instantly ruin someone elses game (e.g. by crashing it, or destroying a commander's recycler instantly).

[MrTwosheds]

I agree with that too, core game stuff should only really be altered when it is clearly incorrect. Not sure what could be done on the security front, I would love to see something like Peerblocks updateable iblocklists built in, so that obviously malign and otherwise pointless stuff like proxy use could just be banned as a default setting. Still I'm not sure there are enough players left to make it worthwhile doing it now.

[Zero Angel]

I hope you mean that MTS because what you proposed before (higher respawn height, strat players will just have to deal) contradicts that point of view.

[General BlackDragon]

I've never liked the higher respawn height thing

[Ded10c]

Someone said earlier getting spawn killed prevents you from even typing anything. Assumedly they mean it closes the chat box, not that it simply spams death messages; if that's the case, why not keep the box open when it player dies with it so?

[MrTwosheds]

I put a bug in for that screen issue a while ago.

I hope you mean that MTS because what you proposed before (higher respawn height, strat players will just have to deal) contradicts that point of view.

As for the spawn height thing I am simply suggesting it be put back to how it was originally, I don't believe it was possible to totally trap a player just by shooting at the spawn point in 1.2 (? at least it never happened to me before) and it is clearly is being used to grief players now. I'm not talking about explosion-multi death, I'm talking about someone deliberately aiming at the spawn point and just repeatedly killing a player(s) with a cannon or gun as soon as they spawn.
A combination of lower spawn and jetpack delay seem to have made it impossible to escape from a spawn killer.

[Zero Angel]

It was a 1.3 convention to set the spawn height high as a method to try and improve gameplay as a method to delay the second wave of a pummel rush (correct me if im wrong). However the gains it makes there are offset by the flow-breaking nature of the change.

Earlier versions of BZ2 actually spawn you a couple of tens of meters above the recycler's dropoff point which means it is actually much faster to get into an empty ship upon respawn.

If anything, high respawn heights work against your favor. If making it more difficult to repeat spawn kill was what you wanted, then it would be better to randomize the x, y and z spawn coords of the player by about 10m or so.

As to spawn killing. Heres the thing. If enemy forces are in your base unopposed (e.g. no base defense) and you're pilots, theres NOTHING you can do. If they wanted to kill your empties or freshly produced AI ships then they physically have the opportunity to do so until their ammo runs out. If you spawn 200m in the air, they can still kill you while they're having their way with your base.

HOWEVER, in the strat games that I play in, about 90% of the time players will tend to honor the 'good sportsmanship' practices of not camping empties and not killing fresh AI ships till the player has gotten into them.

It call comes down to what server you play on. It is up to the *host* to enforce rules. If you get a bad host, well guess what, dont play on that host. These are 'vet rules' and they are expected to be followed in 'vet hosts' (BTW: Veterancy is not a function of skill, it is a function of competence, like being able to pass a road test in a drivers exam. E.g. people like tub_but while terrible at combat are considered vets because they know how to contribute to a team in ST and don't just graveyard zerg). If you expect an uninitiated general public, or griefers to follow these rules in random pickup games its not going to happen. Play on servers you trust or host your own games.

[MrTwosheds]

(correct me if im wrong)

No the variable height respawn was introduced to try and discourage suicidal behaviour, deliberately getting your pilot killed in order to get back to base quicker and so back on the attack quicker, not to delay attacks but just to balance out the gains acquired by suicide, which is seen by many as detracting from the aspect of the game known as survival. Survival should really be a benefit not a hindrance. Nobody really expected obsessive strat veterans to understand...

As for good sportsmanship, Well I agree 100%, But we are having this discussion because someone just pretends to have some of it. But while the fans backs are turned an Olympic level sportsman is kicking small boys in the nuts at a local school sports day...

dont play on that host

There is nothing wrong with the hosts, its the selfish wanker who attacks them. You are in fact just defending the right of someone you know well to deliberately ruin other peoples games for his own fun.
Stop doing it, its not doing you any favours.

[MrTwosheds]

But anyway, a combination of fixes- spawn height, jetpack delay, less lag recyncs etc have brought about a situation where pilots can now be repeatedly spawn killed, prevented from playing and have no way of escaping from it (other than leaving the game). Just playing on well run Vet strat servers is NOT a solution at all. A variable spawn position/height might well help reduce the impact of this new griefing exploit.

[Zero Angel]

(correct me if im wrong)

No the variable height respawn was introduced to try and discourage suicidal behaviour, deliberately getting your pilot killed in order to get back to base quicker and so back on the attack quicker, not to delay attacks but just to balance out the gains acquired by suicide, which is seen by many as detracting from the aspect of the game known as survival. Survival should really be a benefit not a hindrance. Nobody really expected obsessive strat veterans to understand...

And who is this 'many'? Its certainly not any of the dozens of players who I play with who have logged in thousands of hours on multiplayer and are still active.

Survival as a means of keeping the ever valuable sniper rifle is a welcome game mechanic because survival in this case grants you a wanted thing (positive reinforcement) as does keeping your ship. Punishing players for dying as a pilot when they have nothing to gain from surviving is not a game mechanic that the active players I know actually want.

What I am saying is that if respawn height was an option, the players that I play with would most likely set it to the lowest setting because that's the setting that makes them happy, and I thought this was the entire point of gaming.

[MrTwosheds]

Those of us who bother to make a positive input. Very difficult to take into consideration the opinions of those who choose not to.
But you know how it is, they could fire up their jetpack and float back home, but dying is quicker, so the defending commander says "don't kill them" All very illogical for a combat game. Dying should be the worst option.

[Red Devil]

solution: repeat spawn-killers trigger a Mega-MITS™ mine in the center of the map which sucks their entire team into it for 10 seconds and all their weapons, health, and buildings are nerfed to nancy-boy levels for...20 seconds...

that, or the spawner doesn't die, but the spawn-killer does and leaves his ship behind....

actually, an option for the respawning pilot to just be given uber-health for 30 seconds or just be placed in a scout.

[MrTwosheds]

Hmmm a bit over the top.
How about after 20 Player-Player pilot kills within a minute, "Spawn killer auto kicked and perma banned" please contact server administrator to regain access.

ZA Looking back now you should realise just how imbalanced and prone to just collapsing straight away the games back in 1.2 where. (not to mention just being AVed) So many games just degenerated into one side shooting the other sides stuff as it rolled off the recycler that I frequently wondered why I bothered playing it. It has improved a lot, not everything we tried worked out, but often we don't find that out until the players have had some time to learn how to cope with the difference to what went before. Its all trial and error. It is a shame that much of the community allowed themselves to be lured away from having any input by the overreactions of some people to this trial and error process, unfortunately it is the only way it can be done.

[Red Devil]

[Zero Angel]

All very illogical for a combat game. Dying should be the worst option.

Yes, but it's not a fun game mechanic the way you describe it. Just like it's illogical from a realism perspective for a blown up or flipped car in a racing game to be teleported back onto the track and be able to continue to race, it's illogical for player pilots to want to die to get home quickly. However, the point is not to mimic realism -- its the same reason why many of the military sims out there have boring gameplay to most people. The point is to have fun, and walking 1000 meters to get a new ship is not fun. Starting 300m in the air while your base is under attack is not fun.