CHEATING IN Battlezone 2

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Zax
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Re: CHEATING IN Battlezone 2

Post by Zax » Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:40 am

DarkFox wrote:I am absolutely *stunned* that players here only just found out about scion empty recycling.

1.3 in it's current iteration is exceptionally well balanced between the two factions. Recycling scion empties for 20 scrp is absolutely essential to the entire race. Without it, scions are completely useless, they stand no chance whatsoever against ISDf in a skilled game.

The can of worms you're opening by requesting scion scout recycling being removed is monumentally large. It would throw the race entirely off, destroy game balance.

Just because something seems different between the two races, that does not mean it needs to be changed. The races are different. Scions can recycle empties for 20 scrap, and the game is balanced perfectly that way. Don't even consider trying to get this changed.
Scions get double-benefit from their first pool. A good scion commander uses this perfectly, and that's the way the game works. Without it, scions are completely destroyed. It's been an essential, integral part of basic BZ2 strategy since the game was released.



I'm stunned, I signed up here just to post this and try to save the scion race.
Thank you for adding to my argument.

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S.cavA.rmyG.en
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Re: CHEATING IN Battlezone 2

Post by S.cavA.rmyG.en » Fri Mar 04, 2011 4:17 am

the first bit of junk can only be delt with by banning the cheaters. as far as empty recycling if you realy think some thing sould be done I think you sould make a RV so people can keep the stock settings and deside for their self if they want it on or off on a server bases. its simple and it would work and takes vary littel to make work.

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Re: CHEATING IN Battlezone 2

Post by Ded10c » Fri Mar 04, 2011 8:06 am

S.cavA.rmyG.en wrote:its simple and it would work and takes vary littel to make work.
No. Once you'd fixed that, you'd need to re-tool the entire scion race.

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DarkFox
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Re: CHEATING IN Battlezone 2

Post by DarkFox » Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:10 pm

AHadley wrote:
S.cavA.rmyG.en wrote:its simple and it would work and takes vary littel to make work.
No. Once you'd fixed that, you'd need to re-tool the entire scion race.
Exactly, and I wouldn't even know how to start addressing balance if scions did not have their empty recycling...

You see, the problem is, scions will be on less pools than ISDF in the first 20 minutes of the game, and need to be able to afford their buildings on 1-2 pools. If they didn't have emptyrecycling, then we could just bring the costs of all their buildings down by 20 scrap, sure, but that would remove the ISDF ability to 'deny' the scions their overseer/stronghold/spire by taking out the second pool every time it pops up...
Reducing all the costs by 19 is a little closer to the mark, but doesn't quite work for units and buildings that do not cost 40/60/80 scrap, of which there are many (mauler, warrior, stronghold, titan, dower... All the important ones, basically)...
After doing this, you throw the pools requirements and costs completely out of whack, all because scions recycling their empties doesn't 'feel right'.... You'd also need to balance something for the 'pods factor' - scions have to manage when to build scavengers and pods, because it cannot be done while the matriarch is empty cancelling, and this is an important part of scion commanding, too...

Alternatively, you could leave the almost-perfect balance the way it is and has been since the game was released 12 years ago.

I'm all for fixing the DA BOMB cheat, of course, but please try to understand that scion empty recycling is integral to strat balance.

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Re: CHEATING IN Battlezone 2

Post by Purplehaze » Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:57 am

Any commander that doesn't use scout recycling (ISDF or scion) is a fool. Both need to be done with an upgraded first pool, however.

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Re: CHEATING IN Battlezone 2

Post by APCs r Evil » Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:03 am

I was beginning to wonder if you were still lurking over there in the corner, DF. :D

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Cyber
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Re: CHEATING IN Battlezone 2

Post by Cyber » Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:35 am

{bac}MAX is no cheater.

If he owned you in a 1v1, its no big surprise. MAX is pretty good.

"DA BOMB" is no usual weapon for ST, you know. But there are some ways to drop each weapon on the map, for example memory editing.
We played a funny ST and picked funny weps, like jetpack into an assualt tank or sniper in a rocket tank. (Much fun this way ;) )

MAX doesnt know how to do this weapon hacks, it was certainly Vearie (Cloaked).


That thing with building empty scouts to "cheat" scrap is very known in 1.3, afaik the guys learned it from VoodooChile. Its pretty good because on this way you can get scrap much quicker.

@zax: You have to get forge, stronghold and dower. Then you can run away from the rockets. Get asap the antenna, use quill-morphed to beat up all his rocket tanks.

-> {bac}Cyber

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Ded10c
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Re: CHEATING IN Battlezone 2

Post by Ded10c » Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:22 pm

If you can use memory editing to let you use weapons you shouldn't have acces to, then doing so is cheating.

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Re: CHEATING IN Battlezone 2

Post by blue banana » Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:33 am

Cyber wrote:You have to get forge, stronghold and dower. Then you can run away from the rockets. Get asap the antenna, use quill-morphed to beat up all his rocket tanks.
your strategy doesnt work all the time, even when i dont try it and cant win on it (dont know why)

dont be afraid to type /iplist at any time. write it down if you havent, and tell them they are going on your ban list if they dont knock it off. dont be afraid to /kick or /ban too. ive got kicked and banned (once) because i was being a retard :D and it really does matter if it gets too serious.

i have no idea how da-bomb can get in a bz2 game (besides the editor) and especially on multiplayer. get that ip and match it to the next time you find it. other than that, their base is gone too...

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Re: CHEATING IN Battlezone 2

Post by Killer AK » Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:17 pm

AHadley wrote:
S.cavA.rmyG.en wrote:its simple and it would work and takes vary littel to make work.
No. Once you'd fixed that, you'd need to re-tool the entire scion race.

Correction: the scion race was retooled with too much leverage, you can effectively build your base quickly off only two pools in the time the ISDF has 5 pools. It needs to get fixed, or balanced better.

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Zax
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Re: CHEATING IN Battlezone 2

Post by Zax » Thu Mar 10, 2011 6:12 pm

Killer AK wrote:
AHadley wrote:
S.cavA.rmyG.en wrote:its simple and it would work and takes vary littel to make work.
No. Once you'd fixed that, you'd need to re-tool the entire scion race.

Correction: the scion race was retooled with too much leverage, you can effectively build your base quickly off only two pools in the time the ISDF has 5 pools. It needs to get fixed, or balanced better.
You do not understand the ideal ISDF tech path in that case. You'll see why it is perfectly balanced when you participate in lots of vet strats.

Feenix

Re: CHEATING IN Battlezone 2

Post by Feenix » Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:38 pm

Bummer, I never realized that the Scions had such a disadvantage in 1.3? It does sound like some balance issues need to be made, and that cheating although vastly reduced still sems to be a problem. Does this stuff only relate to online play or does it also apply to Instant action and single player games as well? Thanks.

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Re: CHEATING IN Battlezone 2

Post by VSMIT » Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:48 pm

Zax wrote:You do not understand the ideal ISDF tech path in that case. You'll see why it is perfectly balanced when you participate in lots of vet strats.
Strats? We don't play strats here! GTFO n00b.

[/troll]

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Zax
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Re: CHEATING IN Battlezone 2

Post by Zax » Thu Mar 10, 2011 8:04 pm

Feenix wrote:Bummer, I never realized that the Scions had such a disadvantage in 1.3? It does sound like some balance issues need to be made, and that cheating although vastly reduced still sems to be a problem. Does this stuff only relate to online play or does it also apply to Instant action and single player games as well? Thanks.
Seeing as empty scouts aren't part of the build menu in instant action and single player...
but you knew this of course as everyone who has played BZ2 in the last 10 years would know.

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Re: CHEATING IN Battlezone 2

Post by Ded10c » Thu Mar 10, 2011 8:57 pm

BZ2 is perfectly balanced for multiplayer. Appel and Darkfox in particular had at least two massive discussions on the subject.

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