Battlezone II v1.3.6.1 Public Beta released

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Red Devil
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Re: Battlezone II v1.3.6.1 Public Beta released

Post by Red Devil »

i actually played in 2 strats tonight, both 5..6 players. first one, i just cruised around checking warp and lag and anything else i might see. 2nd, one (same server) i actually *played*. i sucked, of course - but i played! :lol: gg

everything ran very smoothly for me as a client. pings were in the low hundreds/100's and lag stayed around 0..2 tenths of a second.

was almost all the way through the second game when the desktop popped up - where i discovered i had forgotten i was downloading and installing Visual Studio 2008 (444 MB). my internet connection is 1.5 mbps DSL.

this is a fresh install of win 7 pro x64 on a new 2500K sandy bridge cpu, z68 mb, 6870 video, 8 gb ram, fps 500+

my previous setup was an Athlon 3500+, 2.3 gHz, Abit AV8 mb, *AGP* 3650, 2 gb ram, fps anywheres from 0 (yes, zero) to 30 fps and i would cause lag and gamestates when i joined games.

moral of the story: i'm thinking that people with lossy connections or cpu or gpu bound rigs might be the cause of some problems.

still some more testing to do, so maybe not.

cheers
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Re: Battlezone II v1.3.6.1 Public Beta released

Post by Feldheld »

I hosted 2 MPI games for 4 players, had lots of lag/warp problems. Especially when the game was advanced, joiners would freeze my controls, I would float helplessly around for like 5-10 seconds then warp back to where Id been before. Lots of "Uhoh's" and players getting dropped.

Got a decent system (Core2 duo 8400 3.0Mhz, 4 gig ram, gtx260, WinXP, 50Mbit down/10Mbit up). With the former patch I could host 4 player MPI with hardly any issues.
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Re: Battlezone II v1.3.6.1 Public Beta released

Post by MrTwosheds »

It certainly can work very well, but it can also get itself a bit mixed up, I don't think it is down to connections Red, I have seen some odd stuff occurring, I joined a laggy mpi with 3 players in it, but when I entered I only saw F9 & f10 as having players, the 3rd player was playing, but my client did not give him an fslot, I rejoined and he appeared ok, but the game was still getting lag episodes.
Something is triggering a failure in client/server continuity, I suspect having one client with a different # of players to the others (on some level at least) would pretty much cause the episodic lagouts.
This is all theory and intuition of a humble programming illiterate tester though, of course I can be wrong.

It would be really nice if a few people could dust off their bz2's and join a test session at some point, so we can explore the issue in a calmer environment.
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Re: Battlezone II v1.3.6.1 Public Beta released

Post by Sly »

Differences should be put aside, and more experienced players, such as Cloaket and myself, should be allowed on the testing team. I'm afraid the complaining that this problem is due to lack of testers is very hypocritical as only testers who have no quarrels with the people on this forum (i.e people who, for the most part, do not play this game) are allowed to test. If you take some time to think about it, and ignore what we have done in the past (ohh I killed an mpi rec qq), you would find testers who have more in-game experience than most on this forum combined (and that IS a fact).
I myself have tried asking for changes, fixing rat head rotation bug (was fixed in latest release), arc cannon lag when being hit by it, collision warp etc. All I received was the "make a rec variant" response, whereas newbs who cry about their recyclers being killed (which is not something GSH should have taken seriously) have had an immediate response from everyone.

p.s. The only problem I've noticed as I did not even bother playing this broken patch is that I still have a ??? ping when viewing many servers, when attempting to join these servers I simply timeout - screenshot available if need be.
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Warfreak
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Re: Battlezone II v1.3.6.1 Public Beta released

Post by Warfreak »

Sly wrote:Differences should be put aside, and more experienced players should be allowed on the testing team. I'm afraid the complaining that this problem is due to lack of testers is very hypocritical as only testers who have no quarrels with the people on this forum (i.e people who, for the most part, do not play this game) are allowed to test. If you take some time to think about it, and ignore what we have done in the past (ohh I killed an mpi rec qq), you would find testers who have more in-game experience than most on this forum combined (and that IS a fact).
Obviously I chopped your post up but just allow me to jump in once again to point out some MAJOR flaws with your argument (although there is only one I can honestly poke at properly):

- The amount of testers IS an issue and always will be. At the moment I think there are barely 8 active testers who take their time to test every day. While that should be plenty they live in very different timezone (Twosheds being 6 or so hours off of everyone and the rest scattered across North America) making getting in a 4v4 a very slim chance.

In effect we need a batch that not only is available and knows that not only should they be looking for obvious hiccups in the system (Lag, warping, etc.) but also needs to be willing to work with the existing tester base, can look for the more detailed issues (none of which are nagged about constantly and appear to get fixed without much notice until they are broken in a subsequent patch) and is able to use the logs and system specs to give detailed bug reports.

- Experience is different to both of us it seems. While we do need players who have played BZ2 since its release (Most of us anyway with some exceptions) we do NOT need Strat players that go for the end-game every time. We do NOT test gameplay, that is what the public betas are for. You won't actually be PLAYING, more or less getting people into a game, seeing if it is stable, building tons of units to attempt to strain the system and sending them off to be systematically destroyed. You see how MPI makes this easier although it has its redundancies and limits. A Strat game can only go as far as to check for network issues and possibly more, however as most public games have showed us they end too fast to get some definite results. So if you are a Strat player and join in to beta test, be sure to realize that you are NOT there to win the game, you are there to look for errors along the way and going for a recycler rush or focusing on attacking with only your thugs in SP-Stab Sabres is not going to help much.

- The few testers that are left played LONG before you knew the community existed (From release up till possibly 2005/2006) meaning if you just joined you will see these people as being here for no reason but you need to remember that this game is probably older than you if you are just a 15 year old who stumbled across this game or you just haven't been paying attention if you recently started playing.

These same people you go out to criticize are the only people who have managed to keep the game as bug free as possible given their situations. Yes there are bound to be the obvious bugs and that is due to lack of testing by a multitude of testers but given that people were allowed into the beta team and they ended up either not helping or just using the code for a mod that situation didn't help out much (and really, what the hell IS up with that. I get modding but if you join the team you join to test or at the very least create assets that more blatantly expose flaws with the stock assets and not create issues with custom assets / setups).

So yeah, GSH has been trying to work efficiently, however bug reports can only go so far when the ideal testing ground is an full MPI game or a 2v2 Strat. And last I checked, GSH does NOT pick out testers rather other testers recommend you. And half the testers that are recommended are picked out from a bunch that I personally never see on the forums and given that this patch came out faster than usual I'd say they are doing a good job.
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Re: Battlezone II v1.3.6.1 Public Beta released

Post by Ded10c »

Sly wrote:Differences should be put aside, and more experienced players, such as Cloaket and myself, should be allowed on the testing team. I'm afraid the complaining that this problem is due to lack of testers is very hypocritical as only testers who have no quarrels with the people on this forum (i.e people who, for the most part, do not play this game) are allowed to test. If you take some time to think about it, and ignore what we have done in the past (ohh I killed an mpi rec qq), you would find testers who have more in-game experience than most on this forum combined (and that IS a fact).
I myself have tried asking for changes, fixing rat head rotation bug (was fixed in latest release), arc cannon lag when being hit by it, collision warp etc. All I received was the "make a rec variant" response, whereas newbs who cry about their recyclers being killed (which is not something GSH should have taken seriously) have had an immediate response from everyone.

p.s. The only problem I've noticed as I did not even bother playing this broken patch is that I still have a ??? ping when viewing many servers, when attempting to join these servers I simply timeout - screenshot available if need be.
The reason you are told to make a recycler variant is that that is what *we* are told to do. When we spot an issue, and it's asset-based or something that we can fix ourselves, we do it. GSH does not have time to do much more than work the code. That was the case for the rat rotation, it is currently the case for some weapon issues, and it wasn't the case for griefing - because that fix had to be done in code.
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Re: Battlezone II v1.3.6.1 Public Beta released

Post by GSH »

If there was an 'uhoh', then POST WHAT IT SAID. I've got a dozen or few of those in the code. What it says is important, but if people just say warp/lag/uhoh, that's uselessly vague.

Sly - I've already said (on page #2 of this thread) what I'm looking for to help diagnose things. Right now, there is no private builds. Everyone should be on 1.3.6.1. Rules are the same for everyone. If you can't follow clear instructions posted, there's no way in hell you'll be added to the private team. Because there's still the same instructions in private: work with the instructions, get logs, write up bugs. Repeat. Those that demand to be loud and in charge aren't going to work with that setup. You can try to be loud and in charge in public builds, but that doesn't help get you towards testing (not Win!Win!WINNNNN!!!!!) private builds.

-- GSH
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Re: Battlezone II v1.3.6.1 Public Beta released

Post by Nielk1 »

Here is every issue we have in summation, at the community level, and hence why we have many of these bugs:

Competitive players:
They think of every bug like something that is already understand and has a stupidly simple solution. Every issue does not for if it did it would have been fixed. They act like they have a complex like every issue was put in on purpose to 'destroy STRAT games'. I am not saying they HAVE that complex, I am saying that everything they do and say makes it seem like they have that complex. This includes those individuals whom were going into MPI games and griefing them to the point private beta dev time had to be spent on that issue rather than the true issues. The ages of these people seem to be in the massive space between children and geezers but the pickings are pretty sparse as it is. Many are quick to anger and some use epithets regularly in normal conversation and troll posts and games about bugs or testing for their personal enjoyment. Some may think they are in some sort of 'war with the MPIers' but really this just makes them obnoxious and makes us not give a flying ****. They have the view that everyone will march on to the next patch every time, as if they are too dumb to think about it first, and constantly claim that every new release will be the downfall of Battlezone forever.

Casual players:
They seem to be unable to notice the lag and issues that exist half the time. This happens whether they play MPI or STRAT, but for the most part it be MPI. Many of these players are young and immature or old and, *ahem*, senile. That said, this group is the most tempered when an issue occurs that they can see and are the most comfortable people to be around. That is why this group is the primary group of influence on this site. In an attempt to reciprocate with the competitive players, or even become one themselves, they will join STRAT games and generally suck and some competitive players will then in return join their MPI games and ruin them. So, in effect, for trying to join in with the competitive players and grow their base, these players are attacked. And then the STRAT players claim their community is dying all because of 1.3.

1.3 Private Testers:
The 1.3 testers are of a highly diverse group. There are newbies and veterans alike, at least on the roster, and there is no biased what so ever on those terms but rather on the terms of past behavior (trolling, etc). The issue is that nearly no testers are active anymore. I now have a job, so I cannot be testing constantly like I used to. Greenheart, I don't even know where he went, he found religion and now he barely logs on (at least ONE person is happy), and Commando is generally pissed with his current circumstance AND the lack of testers. Newer testers like MrTwoSheds are helpful but one is far from enough. ZAX never seems to notice issues and Ax and Windy, god bless them, play regularly on computers nearly next to each other so the only lag comes from the 1 odd tester who joins from the same country when they happen to notice a game (RD pretty often fits this).

@Darkwarrior: What I was TRYING to do in my posts was show you that what you were doing was to exist only in the mindset I gave above creating a sort of 'STRAT persecution complex' where even if the entire game is broken, it is only STRAT that will have actual issues. Instead your replies came off as argumentative and insulting, which is why I gave more of the same (I am a reciprocator) while still attempting to show you were you were making a horrible error. What you were saying was in effect 'oh lordy lords, kill it with fire, STRAT is dead and everything else is fine, how horrible, how evil' when every damn thing is just as broken as the last. You were making blanket statements about things you did not know and were then trying to indicate that others knew not what they talked of (hypocrisy).

@Vearie: Much of the current situation is due to acts on your part and on the parts of other competitive players. Why would any programmer want to surround themselves with people who spit fire and insult them at every turn, considering them an enemy? What GSH asks for is entirely reasonable, but what he gets back are ridiculous quips and anger. If you are told to make a 'Recycler Variant' for what is in fact a bug, then you have FAILED to communicate it correctly. Instead of trying to calmly correct the error, you (read competitive players) get angry and are frankly no longer worth the energy expended to converse with.

My proposal to fix the issue:
First of all, nothing can be done if the competitive players don't drop the persecution complex. No one is out to get them and they only reason their inclusion in much of the testing is so minor is because of their own actions. In fact, if this public patch is any good example, competitive testers prove to be horrible testers. Many are refusing to even download 1.3pb6.1 when it might be their very log files which solve these bugs as they are the ones most severely effected.

It has been claimed that bugs I have relayed from the competitive testers were only listened to because I, a modder, reiterate them. This is far from true, I simply, much more in the past then now, would articulate the descriptions in a much more meaningful way as well as go see the bug for myself to pick up on what was missed and try to create a reproduction case. Repo cases need to be easy to use and quick to point out a bug. 'Play a STRAT game' is not a repo case. learn to articulate your issues better and maybe they can get fixed. Do not react like spoiled children when you do not get your way and instead either move on (unlikely with bugs, this is more a feature request thing) or figure out a way to better communicate the issue or just keep testing. It would be pretty damn helpful to get back a "no" when asked "is this any better?".

As for the casual players, specifically the ones whom join STRATs (though if you do you are damned and if you don't you are damned according to STRAT players, unless you are just magically good at the game), stop. Get a sponsor or something. Anything to stop the other guys from bitching so much, at least until the major issues are resolved.

Now, as for the 1.3 builds, the current situation with testers makes me give this suggestion to GSH:
Set up builds as private, public unstable, and public stable.
Basically, private builds would have the most unstable changes, then the public unstable releases would be released for general evaluation. For all players of the public, it has to be understood these are TESTING patches. The fact that they are called 'unstable' will help the misnomer that they are supposed to be golden. When at some point an unstable patch is found to in fact be 'stable' and count as a milestone, it should be renamed as such and released as the next 'stable' build. Then the bitching about lame duck patches would stop.

We also need to try to get Ken Miller back. While I have my own personal feature requests that I have been holding onto waiting for the Code Elfâ„¢ to come back, I will be holding onto those for a bit longer and suggest Ken, if he return, be urged to initially stay away from features and work on what is currently broken (unless in such case that a break be a behavior that might sometimes be desired, then a toggle should be added and it could be counted as a new feature, for example, TAG and ANCHOR rounds now being able to have their effects keep emitting post impact). GSH is VERY busy, and sadly I think the sort of things he needs at this point are things we cannot give. It would be nice if someone whom works in a QA department at a game company would coach some people around here on how to test. This is not to say GSH cannot handle this, but this is to say that nothing will get done if the bullshit continues without extra manpower, and even then, we would burn Ken out in a month if nothing gets fixed at the community level.

First and foremost for everyone, remember, there is a big difference between bugs and balance. If you can fix it yourself, it is probably a balance issue. In some cases it is an error in a game asset that makes a bug and you can fix that yourself too and submit it (as many of us testers have, tens of thousands of times now). Once you finally take this to heart, it is more likely that your bug reports will be mistaken for balance change requests less and seen as actual bugs.

If this community continues on its current path, I am going to leave. I have plenty of other places to spend my time and would even go about restarting a Battlezone community myself after this one exploded. However, I will not continue to subject myself to the paranoid indignation of so many of our remaining members.
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Re: Battlezone II v1.3.6.1 Public Beta released

Post by Iron Maiden »

Neilk, I elect you president of the ISDF.

No but seriously, I agree with what you say. And you're right in how the community is fractured. I guess I would fall under the casual catergory, but then again I do not have the know how to do much testing. The work you do, as well as the other testers and modders of this community, is very much appreciated by me and the rest of the community who are able to act like reasonable people and see past the petty differences that plague us.

I find it sad how your's and others work, particuarly that of GSH, gets constantly flamed and beaten down for everything, it personally makes me sick of the community as well.

Let's get one thing straight, we all love this game, for many of us it has had an impact of some level, good or bad, upon our lives, and I along with many others do not want to see it die because of the sheer stupidity of people who would rather act like children than a true player.

Can't we all just get along?
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Re: Battlezone II v1.3.6.1 Public Beta released

Post by Red Devil »

of course not: *kicks IM in the knee and runs*

:P

all seriousness aside, don't expect perfection or complete playability from public beta patches now or in the future.

you can either wait until a patch is made that has no bugs or you can be part of the solution.

in other words, helllllllllp! :-)
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Re: Battlezone II v1.3.6.1 Public Beta released

Post by Sly »

I am not some little kid who just "stumbled upon the game". I have far more experience playing in this game than most people in Battlezone 2's history (Sorry to gloat but it is true at this point). I do not look at bugs as simple "fixer upers"; I realize it takes time and patience to fix everything, but try to understand our frustration. In 5.1 I frequently played without any issues concerning lag/warp. It would seem that the last 2 patches, from what my hours of in game playing have told me, have become increasingly worse for pvp interaction. I will accept what GSH has said and will begin to post any findings after this patch has been worked on a bit as I currently cannot join most of the servers which are up. I may not have been known in the past when I played but I feel that I need to become more aggressive as this game will soon be on its last legs.

Side note: As for the persecution bs; look at some of the posts aimed towards the "competitive community" and you will see its no different. I don't care what GSH does, I would just like to see some actual cognition go into some of these decisions (like maybe just realizing that these patches are going in the wrong direction and revert back to an earlier, and more secure patch like 5.1??) Please proceed to spam me with change logs, do you know how much work that would? bla bla bla speech.
Last edited by Sly on Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Battlezone II v1.3.6.1 Public Beta released

Post by Nielk1 »

The last thing we need is you being more aggressive.

Maybe aggressive testing, but none of that other **** that already got you black listed.
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Re: Battlezone II v1.3.6.1 Public Beta released

Post by Feldheld »

GSH wrote:If there was an 'uhoh', then POST WHAT IT SAID.
Relax dude. It said "Uhoh. faking moves for player xyz", and it always came like 15 times in a row. Next time I'll take note of the exact quote.
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Re: Battlezone II v1.3.6.1 Public Beta released

Post by Ded10c »

Unfortunately, NK1, I seem to remember somebody saying that the reason Ken couldn't work on BZ2 is that he left Pandemic before it died. GSH, however, stuck with it until the end. That could be completely wrong, and I hope it is.
Feldheld wrote:Relax dude. It said "Uhoh. faking moves for player xyz", and it always came like 15 times in a row. Next time I'll take note of the exact quote.
Logs would probably help too.
Last edited by Nielk1 on Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Fixed botched quote tag
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Re: Battlezone II v1.3.6.1 Public Beta released

Post by GSH »

Vearie - lies about who plays/who "doesn't" play will not be tolerated here. They are not true, and not helpful to BZ2 in general. Please take them elsewhere. You have been officially warned.

-- GSH
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