Split: 1.2-style fli is not going to be part of 1.3. Locked.

[Iguana]

No he wasn't cheating public beta needs public beta 7! How they are doing it is the empty scout isn't costing scrap when you recycle so what happens is when you cancel builds you get the equal amount of scrap back to build your base up. This helps too much though because everything happens instantly. I did not know this exploit until I started seeing how they are doing it.

Does this work for ISDF or just Scions? If it is only Scions than clearly we just apply the same settings that the ISDF have.

Sounds very similar to Scrapmaking in BZ1. That got removed IIRC.

Very objective: The way you guys present this situation it can only serve as amusement.

Noob XY: I got beat in a game by superior CHEATS!
Noob YY: CHEATS - LETS FIX!!
Noob YX: (putting on his glasses while taking another drag from his pipe) Interesting, sounds just like something without any connection to whatsoever - FIX!

Just another update, when you get some buildings up the scout always gives you your 20 scrap back.

I'll see if I can submit some assets for vetting that fix that, then. Is it just the empties that provide this boost?

QUICK - MUST... SUBMIT... ASSETS!!

It's probably time to start making experimental variants.

REC-VARIANT SAVES THE DAY!

-> Please, lets stop with this charade and just apply it to the new version of the 1.3 beta already - 5 numbnuts decided it is a good idea - QUICK! Fix-man and recvariant-boy head back to the patch cave and FIX this issue!!

I am absolutely *stunned* that players here only just found out about scion empty recycling.

You cant believe how stunned i am DF, really stunned... People with so little animosity towards normal strat games to just find out about this! NO!

I'm stunned, I signed up here just to post this and try to save the scion race.

Yea...

Correction: the scion race was retooled with too much leverage, you can effectively build your base quickly off only two pools in the time the ISDF has 5 pools. It needs to get fixed, or balanced better.

And that from a battle-hardened muthafukka ofa vet! He lost 2 games to a Scion player, sheet!

Bottom-line: 1.3 balance between ISDF and scions is fine. It's perfect.

Perfect totally perfect - in the time you've been playing 10 others games i've stuck with bz 2 and from my experience the balancing is not even close to perfect. Dont tell me i have been playing ISDF as it is being played against ISDF. Blink is just op, that is the bottom line. they will beat the living hell out of your trucks, and the minute after they get blink they will take all your pools, so trucks are the only thing you will be able to build after that. Ah nvm, lets play a game and check out both of our theories, i might end up playing scion 24/7 as i did few years ago again.

@GSH:

Last but not least i have a request! GSH, I havent been playing for a few months now, but I would agree to start playing again should you give me one week of your time to play a few games with me. I could show you what strat is, you would actually play the game you worked on so hard and you would see why a few of us have been playing it continously for years.

I guess i am not the first one to ask you that, but i guarantee you that my references are top-notch. (regarding bz II at least...)

[Ded10c]

I'm going to say now something GSH has said to you many times.

If you don't like the balance in BZ2, go and fix it yourself. It's not even remotely difficult to create a Recycler Variant with the tweaks you are asking for. GSH has far, far more important things to do, such as fixing crashes and lagouts. Not to mention the issues mentioned at the beginnign of this thread. If you're as intelligent as you make yourself seem, you could do it with little to no effort, since you seem to know exactly what is wrong.

[MrTwosheds]

Blink is just op, that is the bottom line.

So short of removing it entirely, how would you make it less powerful?

[General BlackDragon]

more ammo so you can only blink about 5 feet infront of you unless your in a walker?

Or a 30 second recharge timer ?


I think the best way would be a 10 second delay between uses.

[GSH]

@Iguana :

I don't for one second appreciate your desire -- which to me reads close to a demand -- to try and take a week of my time for you. I've got a job, a wife, one toddler and a second kid showing up in just a few weeks. And a house, yard, etc. My free time is very limited. A week where I can spend 5 hours directly working on or playing BZ2 is rare, and that's definitely not 5 contiguous hours. That's more like 5 hours split into a dozen short sessions.

I can (and do) read things during the rest of the week. Why is your list of issues so darn important that you have to try to show me in person rather than an articulate bug report? You can spend time writing on forums. You did so above. Why not spend less time talking about vague fripperies about issues that have to be seen, and actually write them down? If it "has" to be seen, then why not make a 1-2 minute youtube clip?

Also, I generally don't like making any balance or feel changes based on input from one person, and one person alone. As much as you might feel that you've got perfect knowledge or speak for some community, I just don't trust that to be the whole picture. Things that are written down (or youtube'd) can be responded to by a larger group of experienced players with time to think and intelligently respond to things. In short, I want to analyze responses to perceived issues, not reactions.

Bottom line: the more work you put into quality bug reports -- as opposed to demands for presence -- the better things will go. I have very little patience for a group of players with giant egos and a chip on their shoulders, who claim to be the only true players, but won't get their hands dirty and do some work. You're not going to convince me in the slightest by demanding to monopolize my precious free time and then demand I do all the work. If you want changes to the 1.3 patches, then you need to work with me, you need to get your hands dirty and try changing odfs for things that you think aren't right. Not the other way around. Them's the breaks, but I feel that the 'vet' (*spit*) community has always demanded to be armchair quarterbacks, but they need to swallow their pride and accept that maybe if they made a "mod" for balance, etc, it might get somewhere further. You'd think that after 7+ years of not having their pushiness and demands listened to, some 'vets' might have tried another approach.

Here's a free tip: I've got a few suggestions above as to how I like to work. Feel free to ignore it, but if you do so, feel free to whine that you're ignored for another 7+ years.

-- GSH

[Ded10c]

[quote="GSH"][/quote]

Well said.

Also, good luck with the second child

inb4 tl;dr.

[Iguana]

I demanded it? I havent played in months! Also you seem to be thinking that your time is a lot more valuable. I am offering you to play with a vet in the vet community if you want, not bug testing. I never said you have to, but the five hours you mentioned there would be exaclty what i asked for. Neither am I adressing any bugs to you or "the cronies". What I am talking about is the way people here deal with "objective" bug-reports of people who got beaten in two games because of an obvious cheat. And i think that IS darn important, because i at least hope that you want an unbiased opinion.

You want work eh? I guess you know that the manyears the *spit* community has accumulated playing this game and gathering experience about its every bug is far more than what all of you together are putting into modding or patching. I think that using this knowledge would benefit you. The whole vet community is asking you to add a rv, a mod, a something where hovering is an option again and you are too stubborn to do this, so there the input of a few dozen people (and not a single one) is getting neglected. TV has made a few really helpful tools, we have had a dedicated DM server up for years, where a whole lot of people have played. I think that a lot of effort has been made in the past to liven this game up, and people are concerned if they can continue playing bzone, looking at which way it is heading.

From my viewpoint you are seperating the community and smothering one part of it AND that is totally your thing - but i think that your doing is unreasonable and big headed.

Come on man, at least try to listen to what people have been telling you - you could use their knowledge. They've been doing GREAT map testing when the mega mappacks were to be released. Why wont you sit down and debate. You are like the CEO who doesnt listen to his workers, but a company cant run without either of them. THAT is why i offered you to play a little with me and experience this part of the game yourself.

[Ded10c]

Your post read like a demand. Given your demeanour on BZU, are you suprised people have reacted like this?

Another point. Insulting GSH will not get him to do anything. That's exactly why you won'y be flying in PB6 any time soon.

[Nielk1]

Testing for a map involves making sure it is balanced, that it has no obvious glitches such as graphical, missing textures, or alike. And then just play testing full games competitively to test the balance better.

Testing the 1.3 patch involves playing a game and not giving a flying **** about winning. The instant something weird happens, you have to drop your base assault or what have you and chase it down. And in fact the other team should help you track it down, not chase you around the map shooting you while you actually do your job. I have seen a constant stream of bitching from those who have no idea what testing really is. Most of them try to relate map testing to patch testing and to do so is ludicrous. They are FAR from the same and even a moron can see that; all of you could probably see that if not for the ignorant veil of elitism that permeates your ranks.

If you want to fix balance, do it yourself and best get others to help you. Balance and map testing is the simplest testing of all and I would think ANYONE could handle at least that. But if you instead choose to just sit here and bitch about things YOU have the power to change, your points are ever more invalid.

And on the subject of a community split. The split has little to actually do with GSH or 1.3. The split is caused because one party has elitist ideals and chase anyone they do not know away and the other party accepts nearly everyone. The fact the accepting party happens to have a bunch of modders in it is simply because the elitist party hates them.

[Ded10c]

To be honest, NK1, we shouldn't be so suprised that people with no experience of the game industry have no experience of the testing pool.

[GSH]

@Iguana-
You fixated on the wrong thing when you read '5 hours'. Note that that's 5 hours split over a lot of small chunks, where I can be (and am) interrupted early and often. Programming can be done in a bunch of 10 minute pieces where I can think about things beforehand. Not so with playing games and 'vets' (*spit*) Win!WIN!WIN!!!! mentality.

Bottom line: if all you're doing here is to complain about removal of 1.2-style flight, save your breath. Getting me into a game with you won't make me a believer in it. It's still a bug, and it's still going to be removed from 1.3. You can whine and complain, but that strategy hasn't been successful in 7+ years. Won't be successful in the next 7+ years. Try something else, like getting your hands dirty (or beg and plead with one of the modders the 'vets' (*spit*) seem to despise so much for no good reason) and edit up some ODFs to make a recy variant if you think that various parts of balance are off.

Time for a topic split, and lock. 1.2-style flight is going to be in 1.2, only. Those that like it can play 1.2. You have your own private island that's not going away. You can leave that insane asylum anytime you want, but please leave the attitude behind. Exploiting a bug caused any community 'split' -- if the 'vets' had decided to ban it just like turrets in pools, then they wouldn't have the issues with 1.3. Fixes for both turrets in pools and 1.2-style flight (and a lot of other bugs and exploits) are in 1.3. Don't praise one bugfix and complain about the other. They're all bugfixes.

-- GSH