Corporatism vs Communism

[Zenophas]

planet zeno? me, i'm not worried at all, but you guys should be.

And hat's why capitalism doesn't work. Even worry cant be distributed equally.

[Red Devil]

who said things are supposed to be distributed equally? we 'capitalist pigs' believe in distribution on merit and not on an artificial sense of entitlement brought on by a victim mentality, otherwise known as, 'gimme'.

[Apollo]

Capitalism does work, it's the failings of people that doesn't work.
Maybe in a perfect world where we all care more for others than ourselfs Capitalism would be obsolete.

[Red Devil]

agreed.

i think the real issue is that people confuse capitalism with corporatism. capitalism is some guy/gal deciding they want to open up a 'mom & pop' store as 'proprietors'. corporatism muddies the waters by removing the personal responsibility of the owners via stock ownership, which allows these giant financial conglomerates to spread like amoebas on the landscape.

[MrTwosheds]

who said things are supposed to be distributed equally? we 'capitalist pigs' believe in distribution on merit and not on an artificial sense of entitlement brought on by a victim mentality, otherwise known as, 'gimme'.

Distribution on merit is just a "gimme" with an excuse. Capitalism is consuming the source of wealth itself, Creation. It is a terminally flawed plan. We invented Gods to tell us what to do, because we knew we were too greedy, to try and enforce the unwritten rules that apply anyway, it didn't work, we remade our Gods to suit our needs and gave them different names. Now we worship the mighty "Capitalism" devourer of worlds...

[Zenophas]

who said things are supposed to be distributed equally? we 'capitalist pigs' believe in distribution on merit and not on an artificial sense of entitlement brought on by a victim mentality, otherwise known as, 'gimme'.

Distribution on merit is just a "gimme" with an excuse. Capitalism is consuming the source of wealth itself, Creation. It is a terminally flawed plan. We invented Gods to tell us what to do, because we knew we were too greedy, to try and enforce the unwritten rules that apply anyway, it didn't work, we remade our Gods to suit our needs and gave them different names. Now we worship the mighty "Capitalism" devourer of worlds...

[MrTwosheds]

Its much easier to get people to panic than it is to make them think.

[Red Devil]

greece is the poster child of socialist failure: they don't want to pay back all the money they've been sucking from working people, so they bleat and whine.

meh.

"Distribution on merit is just a "gimme" with an excuse."

okay, work all your life and then give your savings to someone who hasn't, then we'll talk.

[MrTwosheds]

That's one way of looking at it. Another way is that repeatedly lending money to people who you know will not be able to pay it back, or the interest due, is actually very capitalist and extremely foolish. The "bailouts" are not gifts, but just a continuation of the cause of the problem. The EU is a loan shark. The problem cannot really stop unless it loses its money.
Greece is having its economy dismantled to pay off its debts, more loans are offered to "help"... In the old days, the solution was simple, no pay up? here comes our army to repossess your nation...Not really part of the plan now, so?
There is only 1 way out of it. The EU has to learn how to count, how to lose, how to not make the same mistake again and possibly how to not exist at all.
Nations have always been formed by theft and violence. What made anyone think an economic union could actually work without these factors? Can anyone think of another case where it did? I can't.

[MrTwosheds]

"Distribution on merit is just a "gimme" with an excuse."

okay, work all your life and then give your savings to someone who hasn't, then we'll talk.

I have worked all my life, Unfortunately this didn't actually get me very much to give away. I helped other people earn their "merit" and got b@*ger all for my trouble.
Merit is often just a LIE cast by those who run off with all the money earned by other folks work. I would love to believe in it, really! Its just not how real-life works out for most people though.
Lots of people here are currently enjoying the benefits of the meritocracy...by having their pension funds legally stolen.

Re topic split title. I don't think anyone here is arguing for Communism, that was an idiot idea thought up by people who had a serious grievance with the existing forms of anti-meritocracy that still afflict many nations to this day, Communism was just as anti-meritocratic as Feudal Monarchy was. Both are anti-freedom/liberty forms of government, they are not opposites, the only real difference between them are the sort of titles the power holders bestow apon themselves. Comrade or King, makes no difference if they imprison or execute you just for opening your mouth.
We are talking about different models of (constantly evolving) democracy, the "Winners Take It All" model vs the "This Is Ours Too" concept. Or even more relevant to todays corporatist world, the "That isn't yours to destroy no matter how rich and powerful you are" concept. This last idea is the one we all need to work on.

[Zero Angel]

Even America, 'the land of the free', was built upon the blood of the native americans there for those europeans who wanted a piece of the pie. The thing is everyone wants a piece so greed is more normal.

The situation in Greece is the result of poor budgeting. However unlike a country like, say, Zimbabwe who can print tons of their own money, devalue their currency into oblivion, then come out with a new currency and do the same to it ad-nauseum -- countries like Greece are limited by financial controls where someone has to pay up. Better that there be a little bit of suffering now, then a lot of suffering later like what happens with countries like Zimbabwe and other countries with completely tanked economies. The US is only a little bit different; financial controls there only allow them to rip people off slowly, by using the Federal Reserve system (a private bank) to print more cash for them to spend. I blame military spending on the tight economic situation there.

Capitalism is different from the government, the idea behind it is the creation of individual wealth through investment and greed. You make some wealth and then use it to make you more wealth. Each time you make your money work for you through investment, you are putting someone else to task. A man might work at a company which received investment by going corporate and gaining shareholders, but you can guarantee that his bosses are under pressure to maximize investment, and the bosses of those bosses are under pressure to do the same. The money all funnels upwards but in the end, who does the work? Those at the bottom, buried under the heirarchy of managers trying to do what those above them compel them to do. It's not a great place to be, but that's the nature of the beast. It's fine to have money and not to worry about living paycheck to paycheck -- but those near the bottom often do. Does it make sense them to offer them no support? It depends on where you are on that heirarchy. Giving them support from benefits and wages takes money out of your pocket, and living under a government who does (e.g. through subsidized healthcare), also does that since the money is taken away through taxation. In the end, what side you're on comes down to who you trust more -- a free system ran by individuals, or the government and the individuals within it.

But keep this in mind if you choose the former. Nobody believes that they're rich. I heard on the radio that there was a study done, and people in the 60th, 70th, 80th percentile of wealth never seen themselves as rich. The general consensus was that for them to see themselves as rich, they would have to have twice the wealth they had now. So now you can see that people will never stop craving the security that comes with wealth -- and that makes me trust people in general a little bit less.

Also, I guess one of the reasons why capitalism gets such a bad rap is because corporations and 'associations' (collection of corporations) are allowed in some countries to have undue influence on governmental policy through lobbyists and campaign contributions. In many ways that is not very much different from corruption because it grows the government to serve entities instead of people.

[Psychedelic Rhino]

The mutation of upper executives income compared to the average worker that has evolved in the US is what bothers me about capitalism. Good ol' boy cronyism of, 'I'll get you on my B.O.D. if you put me on yours, then vote each other's compensation to insanity' is what has outraged many in the US.



That said, even 20 somethings dunking french fries at Mickey D's has some things better than even a wealthy businessman had 20 years ago.

[Apollo]

I would like to know what happened to excess profit laws.

[MrTwosheds]

The mutation of upper executives income compared to the average worker that has evolved in the US is what bothers me about capitalism.

I believe what you are actually seeing is a process not unlike that which has occurred in many other nations throughout history. Gradually this will naturally evolve into a hereditary class rule system, destroying the ambitious ideals of you nations birth. The privilege of extreme wealth will entrench power into genetic lines and peoples lot will once again be determined by who they are rather than what they can do.

[Red Spot]

The EU has to learn how to count, how to lose, how to not make the same mistake again and possibly how to not exist at all.
Nations have always been formed by theft and violence. What made anyone think an economic union could actually work without these factors? Can anyone think of another case where it did? I can't.

You probably make a good point there. But I dont think its the EU itself that is wrong, too focussed on keeping all their partners(giggle) on their feet perhaps.

If I look at just my own country, according standards apparently one of the richest. Yet everything comes falling down atm. Even our banks get lower A-grades than before.
That is not the EU, it is ouw own government, our own greedy banks, etc etc. The best example is that eventhough all salaries have been frozen, officials did get their raise. Even better, this country is ruled following the belief that politics and religion do not go hand in hand. But nobody actually does anything against officials who, against the law, refuse to marry gay-couples.
Then you notice politic parties play games with each other with as stake wether they will make work of those 'refusing officials' and nothing ever changes, for the good at least.

The problem is our own stinking goverment, who again make up part of the EU. Seeing that its not much different in other countries it seems to me that most of our governments are simply failing, add 10 failing parties together and what do you get? .... greece ...