Don't create mods or maps for IA and MPI that create balances issues for BZII players. Common issues I see a lot of in 1.3 and above are modifications that ruin the origin BZII game play feel. The following should be avoided at all costs to keep gameplay enjoyable for all players whether it be online or those that play offline.
Never ever pre spawn enemy turrets just outside of a human players base on or near Bio pools near the players home base. It's quite lame and ruins the initial base building process.
Never ever place super powerful weapons on the battlefield unless you plan to give some to the human players side to balance the game play. This practice is quite noobish in my opinion and ruins the humans commander ability to make any strategic progress against the enemy base.
There are quite a few unbalanced mods that I don't play/enjoy because of such rediculous practices. Remember, not every BZII player has your supposed skill or mind set and is just as capable of winning a game as you are. Other then these few issues thanks for creating some quite awesome expansion mods for BZII and keep em coming!
I pretty much disagree with it all, mostly cause there are other options to counter a previous. And most of the things are already linked to settings, one way or the other.
Col Klink wrote:Never ever pre spawn enemy turrets just outside of a human players base on or near Bio pools near the players home base. It's quite lame and ruins the initial base building process. Start in a sabre and morter them, scrapbonus!! Want to start in a scout and cant strafe them? Send in a scav and hit them hard while they target the scav, scrapbonus!! Besides, it generally doesnt happen when you do not start things out on difficulties that favour the AI, like Spires not spawning in MPI when played with a small AI-startingforce, but do spawn when you give them a large AI-startingforce.
Never ever place super powerful weapons on the battlefield unless you plan to give some to the human players side to balance the game play. This practice is quite noobish in my opinion and ruins the humans commander ability to make any strategic progress against the enemy base. In some cases there might be a purpose for it. Sometimes the purpose is just to create an extra layer of difficulty, which can be great fun when brought in a decent way.
There are quite a few unbalanced mods that I don't play/enjoy because of such rediculous practices. Remember, not every BZII player has your supposed skill or mind set and is just as capable of winning a game as you are. Good advise, now take it yourself and realise that there are players out there that are better than you that dont like the standard -easy does it- type of maps, or simply got bored with them.
Red Spot wrote:I pretty much disagree with it all, mostly cause there are other options to counter a previous. And most of the things are already linked to settings, one way or the other.
Col Klink wrote:Never ever pre spawn enemy turrets just outside of a human players base on or near Bio pools near the players home base. It's quite lame and ruins the initial base building process. Start in a sabre and morter them, scrapbonus!! Want to start in a scout and cant strafe them? Send in a scav and hit them hard while they target the scav, scrapbonus!! Besides, it generally doesnt happen when you do not start things out on difficulties that favour the AI, like Spires not spawning in MPI when played with a small AI-startingforce, but do spawn when you give them a large AI-startingforce.
Never ever place super powerful weapons on the battlefield unless you plan to give some to the human players side to balance the game play. This practice is quite noobish in my opinion and ruins the humans commander ability to make any strategic progress against the enemy base. In some cases there might be a purpose for it. Sometimes the purpose is just to create an extra layer of difficulty, which can be great fun when brought in a decent way.
There are quite a few unbalanced mods that I don't play/enjoy because of such rediculous practices. Remember, not every BZII player has your supposed skill or mind set and is just as capable of winning a game as you are. Good advise, now take it yourself and realise that there are players out there that are better than you that dont like the standard -easy does it- type of maps, or simply got bored with them.
Adding them as player options would be a better option then by the map default. That way players make the choice and we won't mess with mod assets in the map editor.
Point 1 is utter crap because basicly anyone with half a brain can fight a turret that was pre placed. The campaign wasn't a fair playing field, why should MPI be?
Point 2 is possibly reasonable except it just plain hasn't happened before aside from G66 giving the AI subversion (and now the player gets a version of that too). For example, Mega Statues actualy have some of the weaker weapons in the game. If given stock weapons, Mega Towers are nearly unkillable. Their real danger is their breth of attack, from homing missiles to blast like cannons all at the same time, not the power of their weapons.
Nielk1 wrote:Point 1 is utter crap because basically anyone with half a brain can fight a turret that was pre placed. The campaign wasn't a fair playing field, why should MPI be?
Point 2 is possibly reasonable except it just plain hasn't happened before aside from G66 giving the AI subversion (and now the player gets a version of that too). For example, Mega Statues actualy have some of the weaker weapons in the game. If given stock weapons, Mega Towers are nearly unkillable. Their real danger is their breth of attack, from homing missiles to blast like cannons all at the same time, not the power of their weapons.
My points are that in the early stages of the game you end up fighting the enemy before the enemy has even deployed it's own recyler and the player is attempting to deploy his own and start gathering resources. Enemy turrets are formidable adversaries against an un armed Scavenger and weaken your fighting units even before an actual battle has even begun. Balance, my dear friend is key to getting a good game going. Do you even play the game and see my points from a players standpoint? Others may not agree with my logic about pre spawning issues, but most will acknowledge that they are factors that affect the initial game play.
People can choose to download and play on 'fair' maps or unfair maps. It's their choice. One of the more popular mods for BZ2, the G66 mod, is very unfair to the human, but that's what's needed to give some more skilled players a challenge. Its existence is not a threat to you.
Feel free to make as many 'fair' maps without any preplaced AI units as you want, and see how popular they become. Simple, really.
GSH wrote:People can choose to download and play on 'fair' maps or unfair maps. It's their choice. One of the more popular mods for BZ2, the G66 mod, is very unfair to the human, but that's what's needed to give some more skilled players a challenge. Its existence is not a threat to you.
Feel free to make as many 'fair' maps without any preplaced AI units as you want, and see how popular they become. Simple, really.
-- GSH
Nathan, there are already options to set the difficulty of the game play just ask anyone who has played at the insane levels. I guess my main issue is pre spawning AI units in in key areas of the map that affect the initial base build period. I've noticed this with many of the newer maps that unbalance the gameplay enough to allow the AI to build a full base while the human player struggles to build his own base. Fighting for bio resources is one thing during gameplay. It's quite another in the early stages to get a decent game going due to balance issues. My original post was FYI for new modders on what to avoid when tying to make interesting new maps for BZII. The Stock MPI maps were simple and had only a few pre spawned enemy assets making gameplay possible. The newer maps I see currently are pretty unbalanced in favor of the AI in MPI. I can certainly see why map makers add some elements to make the gameplay more challenging, but there is a limit and when it occurs it's what some peeps call overkill. Anyways, the image I posted contrasts the original BZII stock MPI maps on the upper row of the image and the lower row are newer 3rd party maps. Notice the increase in Red on the maps? Notice the proximity to the human players base? The Red spots all along the primary routes to the enemy base? Many of these are super style weapons placed up high where humans have difficulty even accessing them with a fully build base too.
My original tips for modders are valid and anyone with half a brain would aknowledge them for what they are>suggestions on what not to do as a general rule of fairness and as I said before balance.
I might also add that as a general rule 1/3 of the map initially belongs to both sides. The battle then progresses to both sides advancing to possess the remainder of the map through the battling process to gain or lose gorund as the battle advances. Victory is achieved when one side pummels the other side into subission and eventual destroy the other sides base. It's really not that complicated. The battlefield itself and player strategy make the game interesting not a ton of pre placed enemy assets designed to make playing the game an overbearing chore. My God! It's a video game and the lack of balance show all the signs of a noob map/mod maker with a big stick at their disposal.
AHadley wrote:Balance is only really an issue in PVP. If the player is fighting the AI, it's a different story.
I agree with this logic, but differ with you on MPI and even IA games. I think I'd rather have a few bored players complaining then make maps too rediculous to even want to play them.
Balance, wether againt PvP or PvAI always has to be factored in when creating new maps. Greenheart, isn't with us anymore but he were I'd tell him to rebalance all of his maps before including them in the next PB release and the same would apply to other modders as well. I used to love playing BZII, but lately my enjoyment level has dropped to an all time low. Some of the 3rd party maps are a journey in utter frusrtration from a players standpoint.
Klink-
Learn to combine your responses into one and not spam multiple replies. This is basic forum etiquette for this site or elsewhere.
Topic locked. It's now just one person whining because he didn't like the valid responses to the original question. Sometimes life is tough. Go play or make an easier map if you don't like what's out there; you have no right to dictate to mapmakers to nerf their maps.
Want to start in a scout and cant strafe them? Send in a scav and hit them hard while they target the scav, scrapbonus!! 
