Battlezone 2.5

[TwinShadow]

I'm probably stepping over some boundaries, but at the moment I don't care.

Can we please stop talking about the whole BZ vs BZE crap? That was a long time ago and what's done is done. That should be in its own topic instead of hijacking this thread which has nothing to DO with either game/mod. I'm still curious myself as to how this mod will pan out just to test out some of the balances to it.

[Eddy]

[quote="AHadley"Dx could have added that check, yet he did not. That is the difference. He chose to make BZE its own standalone package; the original does not have to be there for it to be played, which means it can replace the original.

I can't choose to download a copy of BZE without BZ included as I can 1.5, so I don't see the relevance there.[/quote]

Yes, you are correct that Dx chose to make BZE stand alone.

You stated "...It's a fork and potential replacement, which since it's incompatible and in a separate server session only serves to divide the community as a whole"

Replacement - What about BZ2, Battlezone Classic or Bionite? Or any game that pulls people away? The concept of a "potential replacement" doesn't make sense to me. You play what you want to play. If uninstalling BZ was a prerequisite to installing BZE, then I would agree.
Incompatibility - Incompatible with what? Is that like saying 1.5 is incompatible with 1.4?
Server Session - are you saying that it would be better if BZE was in the same server session as 1.4 or 1.5? Different versions are in different sessions.
Dividing the Community - People divide communities by their actions. When someone explicitly tells people what they can and cannot play, where they can and cannot post, they are dividing the community.

So I still don't understand the logic behind your comments.

Eddy

[Eddy]

Can we please stop talking about the whole BZ vs BZE crap? That was a long time ago and what's done is done. That should be in its own topic instead of hijacking this thread which has nothing to DO with either game/mod. I'm still curious myself as to how this mod will pan out just to test out some of the balances to it.

Agreed, I didn't mention BZ or BZE in my original post, I was defending Zamu's right to make a mod as different as he likes. It was BB and AHadley that decided to pull BZ/BZE in. Again, my point is warning him to not make it too different is restrictive not inspiring. Let him be inspired.

BB - I believe Zamu should be allowed to do whatever he likes in a mod, within the capabilities of the game. Do you agree?

[Ded10c]

How many mods can you find that make fundamental source code changes? How many mods can you find that run on a completely different server session to any version of the game, rather than being incompatible? How many go so far as rendering any other server than its owner's completely invisible?

[Eddy]

Did you click the link to the BF2142 mod in my post? Read how it works and how it has its own servers because its not compatible with other versions of BF2142.

You seem to hung up on the session number yet ignore that all versions are in different sessions already by design because they are incompatible with each other.

And most games that have source code available would meet your description.

Lets get back on topic.

[Red Spot]

BB - I believe Zamu should be allowed to do whatever he likes in a mod, within the capabilities of the game. Do you agree?

Absolutelly so, however I dont think it hurts to inform him that his choices are more than likelly going to be 'unsuccesfull' if he aims at a 'strat community'.

First of all, here people dont play Strat (a very few exceptions there), you're on the wrong forum if you want to discuss strat. I would be very sceptical about taking advice from people who never play a certain gamemode, concerning that gamemode.

Secondly, this community has so little unity that expecting people to jump the wagon cause you build a (nice, cool, wellbalanced) mod for a gamemode that needs more than 1 player at a time .. unlikelly it will be (activelly) played.

Anyway, whatever Zamu ends up doing I hope he enjoys it, succesfull or not.

[MrTwosheds]

however I dont think it hurts to inform him that his choices are more than likelly going to be 'unsuccesfull' if he aims at a 'strat community'.

The strat community appears to be suffering one of its periodic implosions at the moment...So its a very good time for people who want to start playing strat to do so There are at least 3 or 4 of us here!

[blue banana]

Oh for crying out loud, somebody should just move all of this garbage out of the topic.

Eddy, you misunderstand. He is liable to do whatever he wants with his mod. I was giving him a sincere thought and not go over the edge with things, but I wasn't playing admin on him and actually telling him.

BZE was my example because I too see it as AHadley does, a potential replacement. This mod could very well be that. BZE was meant to replace the original game, split the community into two, and we don't want to reconstruct that nightmare.

[Nielk1]

So, back on topic before Eddy's BzE derail. BTW, BzE is basically it's own game, so its entirely irrelevant in this discussion. The long standing BzE vs BZ1 1.5 bullshit needs to stop. BzE has become nigh on irrelevant because Dx refuses to distribute it with whatever permission he has to make it, pretend or not, so it's not worth even talking about, especially in a BZ2 forum. It is a private game played by a small group of people, keep the bullshit out of here. If you want to talk about BzE here, it should be at a mechanical level for possibly notes on what could go into Zamu's mod, not claims about modding rights or whatever else you can crap out.

Additionally, people getting all bent out of shape because we made suggestions that were asked for, grow up.

Zamu, my suggestion is don't call is Battlezone 2.5, you create a false expectation that will only anger people and hurt your mod.
Plus, don't expect vets to play any mod that adds more defenses, vets like to rule the map as the strongest warrior and occasionally use their AI minions for minor tasks (this is the style of every FPS with RTS elements that has come out since so I really don't understand why they haven't moved on to those).

The simple fact that many of the things you say were wrong with BZ2 are in fact not wrong, just against your personal tastes, does not mean you can not and should not try to change them. It however does mean that people need to get off their damn high horses, because while the mechanics in place are not wrong and do work that does not prevent you from changing whatever the hell you damn well please. That's the point of a mod after all, to augment, enhance, replace, alter, or otherwise modify the underlying game it is applied too.


On the topic of community fragmentation:
We are at the point the game is nearly irreverent even to its own community. Massive changes are not the way to fix that, community reform is. The fact mod games list with normal games will allow for users to change mods as needed, so talk about segmentation of the community is nearly irrelevant. I have brought a lot of people back into the game when I told them about the updates to make it run on modern systems and the removal of the various physics bugs that made them quit long ago (the same bugs that some people still hold onto and claim were part of the game, that in fact chased off a good 90% of its original player base) only to have them quit again because of the vitriolic and disgusting nature of the online community. If you want to help this game survive in multiplier, you need to target the community issues, not the play style of the game itself.

On the topic of this mod's implementation:
If at all possible, make it a recycler variant. Then it has the maximum usability and allows a player to be in "stock" mode to grab a normal game if no one wants to play your mod at the time. You can call it the "Zamu Recycler Variant" just like past mods like "TheJamsh's Recycler Varient" and the "Steeveeo Recycler Variant" or the stock "Greenheart Recycler Variant". Do this, get play testing, decide how you want it to work, and keep evolving and improving. And hey, if you need supplemental mission script to make it work, we can come up with another passive distribution system such as dedicated maps.

[MrTwosheds]

I agree with Nielk1 on the recycler variant, its the best way to get the essential core your mod up and functioning to start with, should you then wish to expand it to a full mod you still can.

[blue banana]

I agree with all of Nielk1's post, especially the community reform. But let's not start another derail.

A recycler variant would be a good way to release this, since all this is right now is change and small additions. I would personally make this into a full scale mod once you choose to add more races. Naming it something significant would mislead others and, like said earlier, anger players.

[Eddy]

Nielk1, BB brought up BZE and AHadley dived into the BZE/BZ crap. I was responding to BB's comment about avoiding "dilemma" by making too much of a change (which I disagree with). And it's a shame that several community members choose to deride other people's development efforts instead of being constructive.

I agree 100% with you on letting someone make whatever changes he/she wants, that was the point I made more than once. Look at Battlezone Classic, it's recreating BZ1 inside of BZ2. That's significant gameplay changes from BZ2 but the more power to GBD and the rest of the team for putting the effort into making something that will be enjoyed by those who play it. Who knows, one of these mods might bring more people back to the game. if not, then nothing lost.

I played BZ2 for years and ultimately moved over to DM exclusively (this was prior to 1.3) since the strat games played best when you have more than 1v1 and finding more than 2 players became increasingly difficult and then nearly impossible. For the most part, i agree with Zamu's assessment of strat. Like he said, it's not that it's wrong, it isn't the most engaging form of strategy gameplay for me.

Eddy

[Zamu]

Took a few days off from posting to let the thread cool down.

I have to say, this thread caused a much bigger splash than I had expected. I was expecting few people to notice, and even fewer to care.
I think the name I chose for the topic was good at grabbing people's attention but bad at conveying what I plan to do. My goal was not to incite any kind of hatred or turn people on each other.
I am still making progress. Starting to design and model units as well as making maps. I think I will remain quiet for a while, updating further down the road. Mainly because I think the kind of gameplay I am going for will be more understandable when it's in a playable state. I may post some models or art but keep quiet as to how everything is working under the hood.

It's inevitable that I will create a new topic when I reach a fully playable state. I will present a much more formal design document for the mod, as well as transparency with my long term goals. That time may not be too far away.

If you want to discuss anything or wish to help, feel free to PM me. I can communicate with you using the forums. I also use skype and steam, and would not mind sharing my contact information if you ask.

[Red Spot]

My goal was not to incite any kind of hatred or turn people on each other.

When you're around long enough you'll realise that it isnt you, its what has become of our community.
Big ego's and an inability to see what others mean/who they are talking to tends to work in nobody's favour. Not to mention less than polite/respectfull behaviour that for some has apparently become a sort of standard.

BZ(2) is like a religion to a lot

[Nielk1]

This is why I said ignore people's opinions if they aren't constructive and have at it, make what you want.