Openning a can of worms ISDF V SCION fair? vote on it

[Baconboy]

Or are you named after the map?

[Ded10c]

Or are you named after the map?

Ooh, I don't know, SUB-0's been around a long time.

http://www.freewebs.com/sub-00/bz2mods.htm

That site is old enough for me to have been using it when I first played BZ2 in 2004.

[SUB-0]

Hi Baconboy sorry i dint answer your question sonner ...If your asking about the Sub-Zero map ? No i did not make that map and i dont think it was named after me either ....I believe there was a player a while back that sported the same nick as me just speled different sub-zero whom i never met...an me sub-0 not the same guy ....i have made many maps of my own from converting bz1 maps to bz2 maps ...maps based on spAce tutorials INFSYS style maps ...and also maps using winter and other programs....such maps as venus melt down ...subworld and many others ...i have been playing bz1 since its first release way back in 1998 than bz2 and have always had this nick SUB-0 (why? SUB-0) because i live in northern ontario Canada and temperatures here well you get the rest ...BTW your not the first person to ask ...And the sub-zero map is a very nice map indeed... My hat is off to the editor He did a very good job.

[darkwarrior]

Ah I love it when this question is asked. Now before one can really answer this question, they must first ask themselves, how often do they play, and what kind of maps are played, as size and pool layouts are important.

In my opinion, the races are balanced depending on map types and the skill of the player. When playing tiny, maps, like quarry, Isdf will win no matter what. If both commanders or teams are equal in skill. This is really just a given fact, people will try to argue it, but the thing they may not realize is that on small maps, pools are close, and tight together. All the isdf really have to do is hold, 1 pool, get the loose and use good scrap management skills, so that they can rush an armory. After the armory is claimed, chain gun will dominate scions, and scions will be unable to hold 2 pools to get to a upgraded warrior. Even if they do have 2 pools, they will be most likely spending their scrap on new ships and scavengers and defenses as they will get hammered frequently. The other thing is that scions have no good defense on their stock scouts and warriors against chain. They can't even use an upgraded cannon weapon until much later like quill, which may match the offensive of chain, but as long as you can aim chain and get a few hits you have them. Also your scout can be upgraded with shadower after armory, which means you can out range the enemy always.

If a game is launched on a large scale map such as groundzero, scions will have the ultimate advantage. Larger maps delay the isdf in pumping out their cheap units and assaulting the opposing team. Of course, we are still assuming teams are both balanced in players. All scions must do is rush blink, once this is done, the only thing that can stop them is a heavily defended base with many rocket type units and the typical guntower. However, that isn't to hard to take down with maulers, and considering scion's have almost 200m range with arc, they can easily peek corners to take down units. With blink, scions can travel the whole map, take out some stuff, blink about 300m out of the enemies range and run back to defenses. With the ability to build buildings anywhere, scions can build a defended dower near an enemies base for quicker attacks.

Where are the teams more balanced? On medium-sized maps. Isdf is a quick race for building stuff, and it appears that it's best time to strike is at the beginning of a match, or right before the scions have blink warriors. Scions are more effective later in the game if they can stall till then. Of course, both sides have their tricks to stop stuff, it is about how skilled the player is.

All of these points are valid, if both teams are very close to equal in skill. Lack in skill will skewer these results. If and Isdf commander's can't manage scrap properly and make every second count, scion's may be able to pull ahead and get to blink warriors. Typical Commander errors and mistakes are what will make what I have said change.

Darkwarrior.

[MrTwosheds]

Well I had a great game with "denham" yesterday, he was isdf I was scion, a player joined his team right at the start so I got a bit behind, then one joined mine, we struggled for a while, The ISDF dominating the pools, fielding rocket tanks, walkers and building Gt's at some of the pools. But I managed to get full scion tech, never managed to regain enough pools to fight em off though, right at the end they assault my base I abandon it and attack his base in a single warrior, bad defensive positioning and building too many pods meant I was able to destroy both his recycler and factory unfortunately his factory went down about .05 seconds after my rec. So they got the win. Damn good game though.

[SUB-0]

good points of observations ...if you think of it as simple math ?....and balanced teams of cours ! the size of maps position of pools and build tree of both races ...one could almost predetermine the fate of a game before it started ...of cours is a general idea...no one can predict the futur...but one could make and educated guess ...as to whats maps would be fair or not to play on as oposite races...Again i dont wana influence the vote one way or the other ....it does paint a general picture...

everyone is free to post there opinion ...help stop the racisim.... Racism is the belief that there are inherent differences in ISDF and SCIONS traits and capacities which are entirely due to their race, however defined, and which consequently justify those races being treated differently, both socially and legally. Alternatively, racism is the practice of certain group/s of players being treated differently, which is then justified by recourse to racial sterotyping .

regards SUB-0 :p

[Huib-Bloodstone]

I think this depends on what gametype it is.. MPI or ST

When can u balance something when players are behind it ??

[SUB-0]

Of cours 2 evenly matched players playing a Strat ...and wheather or not ISDF vrs SCION is balanced in your opinion Huib-Bloodstone ? thats what the vote comes down to in the end ...Hopfully poeple having this debate in the future can use this vote as a reference ...and give them an idea as to what the majority of Vets ,Newbs, Tugs ect think and most importantly a vote to actually show the stats .... a Consensus to be more precise

Consensus decision-making is a group decision making process that seeks not only the agreement of ''most participants'' but also the resolution or mitigation of ''minority objections''. It has its origin in a Latin word meaning literally to feel together

and the reason why i even bothered to post this
is because it has come up often in ST games and no one could come to an agreement
it bacame a problem at times

thanx for reading and votting all opinions matter
SUB-0

[Feared_1]

Modern day society has shown a great deal of prejudice and intolerance for those who are different than us. These prejudices mainly stem from ignorance about another individual's culture. The reality is that, despite cultural differences, everyone plays an important role in society. The important thing to remember is that those roles are different from individual to individual, but they are all equally important.

I would recommend educating yourselves on other cultures. Experience, feel, and understand what individuals who relate to those cultures have to go through on a daily basis. Get involved in the community; immerse yourself in the other culture, and you will begin to be able to understand and respect them for who they are and for the essential role they play.

[FallenAngel]

How could you debate such a question when you know.. you must be pro to destory scion warriors if you ISDF. Scion warriors have arc and blink such weapons that no ship can stand besides warrior vs warrior. Also warriors have the way of not dieing if your quick enough if theirs a rocket tank with shadower and salvo or hornet.

The only great thing about ISDF's etc wep is the phatom IVR which only really effects rocket tanks because they wont beable to shoot out shadower and if you dodge the salvo rockets.

Also the Scion mauler agaisnt buildings which is used for rushing is more powerful for taking down Gun Towers and you base buildings such as powers etc. While the Atilla Walker is so slow it could be destoryed by a warrior if not guarded well enough.

Also the archers vs mortar bikes. Archers way of protecting them selfs have been used by putting them near titans with high range and moderate power damage and ISDF mortar bikes are mobile units that have worse range and can be destoryed easy by a spire.

Although ISDF has the bomber but can be easly shoot down or its bomb can be easly destoryed without any feed back damage.

Their for I say Scion and ISDF are unbalanced because of Scion's over powerd weapons/ships.

[Ded10c]

One of the old BZU's many long and involved balance threads, search "balance" for more;

http://bzuniverse.bzscrap.org/index.php ... 225.0.html

[MrTwosheds]

Their for I say Scion and ISDF are unbalanced because of Scion's over powerd weapons/ships.

So why is it that most commanders lose more as Scions? Balance is not the same as equal.
The biggest imbalance is in the early game, if the scions lose their full scouts in the first dogfights, they rely heavily on their inferior empties and the sentry is also no match for an ISDF scout because of its slugish handling. Most Scion vs ISDF games are lost to the ISDF at this point. Later in the game things are more equal, blast/arc are well matched weapons, but the isdf have an advantage in the greater range of their weapons while the scions have speed (blink/mauler). If a game lasts until both sides have tanks and assault units, it could go either way. But the Scions will probably win unless the ISDF commander uses their assault units effectively.

[Lionsword7]

I disagree about Sentries.
Full Chain Scouts + Shadower and VIR < Gauss Gun Sentires + Blink + Deflection
I've personally tested it out. Our team was worse at dogfighting, and we still smashed them.

[Iron Maiden]

Scions:

Benefits: tough, powerful, advanced units and ability to build anywhere, making, in the event of having a skilled commander, a base slightly less vulnerable to bombers.

Cons: Needs lots of scrap and a lot of time to build a base.

ISDF:

Benefits: Various light, cheap craft and heavy tanks to present well balanced fron to the enemy.

Cons: Need power plants, adjacency, compacted scrap pools.

It really does depend on the map and commander. Against the regular U.S army now though, both kinda win because of...well... their tanks fly and are made out of Bio-metal.

[MrTwosheds]

I disagree about Sentries.
Full Chain Scouts + Shadower and VIR < Gauss Gun Sentires + Blink + Deflection
I've personally tested it out. Our team was worse at dogfighting, and we still smashed them.

But the point at which you need really them = kiln = no gauss, blink, deflection.