Openning a can of worms ISDF V SCION fair? vote on it

[APCs r Evil]

Hence why Sentries are so rarely used, when you need them, they're nearly worthless. By the time they get Gauss, you could build a Warrior with Gauss and more armor or go higher in the tech tree.

[Nielk1]

Anyone have Darkfox's strategy guide / balance analysis thingy? It was on BZU before we lost it and the topic also had lots of neat tidbits on FE balance and Hadean design decisions in it too.

[FallenAngel]

I dont know but I wish their was a ST guide cuz I kinda suck at commanding however I have become a pro at dog fighting. Ive been doing Death Match a lot lol. Not only that but {bac}MAX trained me on dfing too.

[AcneVulgaris]

I think Scion are more powerful, but it requires more skill to take advantage of that power.

[Mauler_Bait]

They are balanced...it just depends on how long the game goes...Scions can die pretty quickly Early off in the game to chain scouts and pulse/laser sabres, but if you allow them to get blink/ark your finished, they are a great late game race.

Scions COULD use a bit better anti air, but thats just my opinion

[DarkFox]

Hence why Sentries are so rarely used, when you need them, they're nearly worthless. By the time they get Gauss, you could build a Warrior with Gauss and more armor or go higher in the tech tree.

Sentires can be very useful, and the less people in the game, the more potent sentries are. In a 1v1 or a 2v2, an all-sentry rush with deflection shields can completely lock the ISDF base down, and win there and then. Don't underestimate an experienced scion commander with sentries.

Re: Balance, the game is brilliantly balanced, don't worry about it. The more people pick scions, the more people learn to adapt with ISDF.

Re: Strategy guides... I'll post some up later today. I have a beginner's guide, an expert's guide, an intermediate ISDF guide, and an intermediate scion guide. I'm not sure which are complete, I'll double check later...

[Zero Angel]

Good to see you around, DarkFox. Just to add that in 1v1 and 2v2 games, AI gauss sentries work very well as wingmen against ISDF light craft (Scout, Missile Scout, and to a lesser degree, tanks) and can tip the scales when going against a superior ISDF dogfighter.

DF: In your opinion, would Scions still be balanced if the 20 scrap return for recycling empty scouts was reduced to 10? (ISDF would have a similar reduction from 15 to 10). It seems to be popular for Scion players to turtle in their base with 2 pools and recycle empties these days.

If there is any imbalance between the forces, then this would be where the crux of it lies, I believe.

[DarkFox]

DF: In your opinion, would Scions still be balanced if the 20 scrap return for recycling empty scouts was reduced to 10? (ISDF would have a similar reduction from 15 to 10). It seems to be popular for Scion players to turtle in their base with 2 pools and recycle empties these days.

I've answered this before. It would destroy every semblance of balance that the game has, would castastrophically damage scion's gameplay, and make BZ2 a complete 1-race game.
FE rebalanced things so that ISDF empties recycled for 10, and scion ones for 15, to try to remain in the spirit of scions being better at the trick, while still reducing the trick for everyone. End result - balance ruined (and remained ruined at release).
Don't even go there. I don't understand why this has recently become an issue that people feel needs to be looked into... ?

Hey, you asked my opinion.

[Zero Angel]

And I got it. Thank you.

However, when you talk about what FE did, my understanding of what FE did was that it was balanced in because ISDF truck recycling trick existed to counter this (where trucks would recy for 40 to speed up ISDF teching to lategame), as well, Scions did not have 3 second morph time, jammers and acid cloud were not as strong as they are now. With these things taken into consideration, do your thoughts on the matter remain fixed?

[MrTwosheds]

I don't understand why this has recently become an issue that people feel needs to be looked into...

It has become an issue, because it has become widely used as a way of gaining a big scrap advantage. It is not there by design, it is a careless accident in the assets. Most of us feel the game would be improved by removing exploits like this and that those who use it, would be better entertained by a level playing field. This is not just a game for vets who know all the tricks. Apart from that, its annoying to have to do it just to stand any chance at all against an opponent who also does it. It gives a very unfair advantage to those who know and makes new players think were all a bunch of cheats. Its an exploit, it should go, If the races are really that unbalanced without it, then we should fix that too, without resorting to obscure practices such as build cancelling.

[DarkFox]

I don't understand why this has recently become an issue that people feel needs to be looked into...

It has become an issue, because it has become widely used as a way of gaining a big scrap advantage. It is not there by design, it is a careless accident in the assets. Most of us feel the game would be improved by removing exploits like this and that those who use it, would be better entertained by a level playing field. This is not just a game for vets who know all the tricks. Apart from that, its annoying to have to do it just to stand any chance at all against an opponent who also does it. It gives a very unfair advantage to those who know and makes new players think were all a bunch of cheats. Its an exploit, it should go, If the races are really that unbalanced without it, then we should fix that too.

Make a rec variant then.

And I got it. Thank you.

However, when you talk about what FE did, my understanding of what FE did was that it was balanced in because ISDF truck recycling trick existed to counter this (where trucks would recy for 40 to speed up ISDF teching to lategame), as well, Scions did not have 3 second morph time, jammers and acid cloud were not as strong as they are now. With these things taken into consideration, do your thoughts on the matter remain fixed?

FE also gave ISDF stronger rec defense than scion, tweaked a lot of assets to give ISDf stronger options, the most notable being the hammer and the comet cruise missile, and make laser such a grossly overpowered early-game weapon that balance remained destroyed.

This is a can of worms that really doesn't need to be opened, honestly. I'd be all for having empty recycling removed if it is replaced with another form of unique resource collection racial difference, and have scions be a useful race without it, but that is a monumentally difficult task, and one that, sadly, I just don't feel we have the community to do anymore. Battlezone2 is too weak to deal with such a huge rebalancing effort, and a move like this would be more likely to divide and kill the community than to strengthen it enough to fix the gaping hole this creates in the game. We don't want another hovering issue. Use Nathan's rec variants to get your favourite divergence from stock, but for the love of all that's holy don't even entertain the idea of doing this to stock assets.

[MrTwosheds]

Better we fix the stock, and people who really want unbalanced annoying exploit ridden games make their own variants with as many as they see fit. At least if its called the "build cancelling variant" then new players will get some idea of what they are supposed to do in order to be able to compete with more experienced players.
Isdf and Scion empties should return the same amount, they cost the same amount, set at 10 cancelling becomes a waste of time.

I had no idea that anyone would feel so strongly about an annoying exploit that actually seriously UNbalances games and gives more experienced players such a huge advantage over the new players. New players are the future, if this game has one, exploit users are its plague.

[DarkFox]

Better we fix the stock, and people who really want unbalanced annoying exploit ridden games make their own variants with as many as they see fit. At least if its called the "build cancelling variant" then new players will get some idea of what they are supposed to do in order to be able to compete with more experienced players.

I give my opinion, it gets resisted by people that really don't understand the depth of the hole they're trying to burn into the landscape of BZ2. It's like you think people like me post these opinions because we have some kind of agenda to damage the game or create a skill gulf... I'd hoped me writing 40+ pages of guide would dissolve some of the notions that players don't want the competition, but I guess some players just can't stand having their views resisted.

Bottom line: One view is based on what people 'feel' might be a better landscape for a game that makes more sense.
Our view is based on what we *know* offers a balanced landscape for a game that plays well in a multiplayer environment.

But that'll never be enough, because what you 'feel' is in your heart. Go on feeling, and make a rec variant. Nathan put it there for just this sort of thing.

[Clavin12]

Hey, haven't seen you in a while.

I really don't think anyone is trying to "burn a hole" in bz2. Why must we argue?

[DarkFox]

Hey, haven't seen you in a while.

I really don't think anyone is trying to "burn a hole" in bz2. Why must we argue?

We don't argue, we discuss.

I also don't think that anyone is trying to burn a hole in BZ2.
The key word here, though, is 'trying'. Just because everyone wants the best for the game, that doesn't automatically mean that their suggestions will not damage it if implemented.

ps. Hi to you too!